Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Peales) — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:32:07 GMT

Pentalux,
I'm happy to respond to your inquiry. With regards to zenith; within handmade knife making circles there is a lot of agreement that Bob Loveless, Ted Dowell, and a handful of others perfected the design of the hunting knife. They had synthesized the functionality, ergonomics and materials into a superlative design. Design innovation hit the wall, everyone knew it, Loveless became a household name. To put a positive spin on it, the utility/hunter knives had arrived at their...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (ARTHURK) — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 04:51:36 GMT

Hi All,

I'm a fan of many modern rodmakers who think out of the box. I love chatting with makers about their little 'experiments' and I'm constantly amazed by their points of view. IMHO, cane rod 'evolution' is in part taper, aesthetics, construction methods as rightly mentioned by Blue Quill but I deeply believe that like everything that requires the 'emergence' of new ideas, we need a large and active Canerod Community contributing all sorts of...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Gnome) — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 23:03:49 GMT

Zencane,

Here you go and no problem. It was a definite head scratcher in Montrose today at the Gunnison Gorge Anglers fund raiser. A friend of mine was so mystified by it that he has orderd one and I have made arrangements with another fellow in the area to sell the rods through his outdoor/flyshop on the road to grand mesa just on the edge of Cedaredge.

Here is the A category prototype with its first large pond fish

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Pentalux) — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:45:46 GMT

Well said Blue Quill, I completely agree with you. This is a great thread.

Mr Bruce Day, Peter Werner - he is a member of the board - wernercase - his website is www.awbookbinders.com - He is mostly known for his guncases and books - superb work...

Peales - A most interesting perspective - Please explain and perhaps give detail as to what you mean when you state "There are many products out there of great utility that have reached their zenith, their limit. When a...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Blue Quill) — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:42:27 GMT

Tonkin cane may not be the best cane for bamboo rods. When it was isolated for rodmaking the rodmaking industry was looking for a raw material that met certain criteria while also being available in sufficient quantity to support industrial production. There are likely species available in artisnal quantity that may be better. It may or may not be worth the effort for the gains in performance, but the potential is there.

Glues are another evolving area. Bamboo has very little...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (ZenCane) — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:49:18 GMT

And as far as your question and I qoute you; " To what degree can you participate on these fronts and be satisfied? "

How about a bamboo rod that loads and unloads with no additional ocillations or sine waves after the first load and unload, a rod that tracks perfectly true and its point of recovery after being flexed is instantaeous? I am very satisfied with the performance of the rod and it is so far out of the box it is not funny. and there are a few who have cast that...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (tim simbari) — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:15:51 GMT

I guess my point was not so much the efficiency as the precision about that and the generations it spawned from the modern Leonard that begat T&T, the Morris Kushner machine that had a relationship to Young ultimately evolving to Summers. Many of the principles even working to the Morgan machine that has ended up in so many locations. Perhaps no single innovation in some form or variation can connect it's genetics to so much bamboo craftsmanship.Between that and the 1878 patent...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (quadrate) — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:02:04 GMT

Tim,

From a production standpoint you may be right about the most significant innovation. It went from being highly labor intensive to highly efficient in a short period of time. Although I must say that the innovation of the beveler was not a bamboo rodmaking innovation. The same machine was used to make barrels. Hiram Leonard shrunk it down and used it to cut rod strips. A great adaptation. If any of his workers were able to see it they probably would have been able to...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (tim simbari) — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:42:09 GMT

How about a potential claim for the greatest bamboo rod innovation as the modern beveler. As to some of the great masters, great tapers, and biggest development in rods, it is interesting to note how a variation of that invention is woven throughout rodmaking history.

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (quadrate) — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:41:32 GMT

This is a very interesting thread. I have had this conversation several times with other rodmakers/collectors over the years. There really have been only a couple of major innovations if you take out the evolution of rod tapers.

Tonkin Cane was the first innovation. It simply is the best cane for what a rod is made to do. The next was flaming/heat treating to temper the cane to enhance its characteristics. I personally don't think you need all of the highly...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (oldschoolcane) — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:19:18 GMT

Peales, I agree with you completely. It's a very progressive statement to say "this is good enough". I'd encourage anyone here to grab an old L.C. Smith and take it bird hunting & tell me how this side by side can be improved? Sure you could carry something thats faster & lighter, but why?

Tim

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Gnome) — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:09:38 GMT

Peales,

Where would we be if Hiram Leonard and others had held your views? we would be fishing with 20' ash, greenheart and lancewood rods.

As a modern maker I feel that we have only scratched the potential of the material itself. The Classic bamboo rod can be made strictly to the requirements of the tradition and yet also has the flexibility as a material to be used in different fashions to achieve the same result.

The rods and people we admire so much where...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Peales) — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:42:56 GMT

I really doubt that there will be any significant advancements to the craft of building fly rods with bamboo. Most of the materials as they are utilized perform well for the tasks of fishing. Do you suppose side-by-side shotgun makers are scratching their heads about the next great innovation? Or that a knife-maker can improve upon the classic knives that have already been designed?

There are many products out there of great utility that have reached their zenith, their limit. When...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Bruce Day) — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:20:19 GMT

Mr. Pentalux, the wood case for the pictured rod is quite striking. How can I contact the maker?

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Pentalux) — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:18:07 GMT

Great thread. If we are discussing innovation which by definition (according to Websters Dictionary) means - 1 : the introduction of something new 2 : a new idea, method, or device : Not sure if its fair to exclude the quad and the penta rod forms from the discussion. "As makers we stand on the shoulders of the masters who came before us" - I believe the very latest innovations have been a result of the culmination of this knowledge - the available tapers, glues and overall...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (freestoner) — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 01:59:17 GMT

Bamboo guides- or bridge frames for guide rings, at least.

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Gnome) — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 09:52:09 GMT

Alan,

The use of scarfing goes back at least 200 years and was the first technique used to join a bamboo section to the wood thus taking the first steps toward the cane rods of today.
It probably was not for a repair but was done to stop needing to repair the delicat wood tips of the day. And as far as scarfing more durable pieces onto the end of the tips that can be traced back over 500 years ago and it was the use of baleen for a more durable tip and it was written about by...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (WatercolorMan) — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 03:43:59 GMT

I always liked the short butt and extra long tip to go with it, placing the ferrule in a different location was a nice innovation. That may have come from breaking a rod and doing some field repair that lead to the new design. I'm not sure who did it first. There was also the the combination rods that the Powell family is so well known for, although I believe it is a much older idea. The spiral rod is a nice variation that goes back to the 1890, I think but later new tools and some...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Booman2) — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 01:03:32 GMT

I think I saw some experimental bamboo ferrules 20 about years ago, either at Hartzell's shop, or Winston (Brackett). Howells spoke to me about using graphite ferrules but said he didn't have the tons of money required to perfect them. I've fished a great Japanese rod that had zero finish, the thinking being that bamboo does really well in the rain, with no help from varnish. I've also fished a rod sprayed with one .0005 coat of auto finish: tough and durable. Then, there are...

Re: Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (Tim Anderson) — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 23:25:48 GMT

Innovation need not mean major change. For example, innovation in the Otto-cycle automobile engine has been mostly through gradual change. Mr. Daimler and Mr. Ford would both recognize almost every aspect of the function of a modern automobile engine.

A split-cane rod is a much simpler system than an automobile engine, so we should expect that gradual changes in our rods might involve few major jumps.

American builders pioneered shorter, lighter rods as well as...

Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?

feeds@yuku.com (RPL) — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:00:58 GMT

What are the most important innovations in bamboo rods following the development of six-sided cane? ( I've taken the liberty of ruling out four-sided and five-sided rods.) Okay, there may have been advances in glue, but rods from a hundred years ago don't seem to be coming apart. Materials for rod hardware have possibly made progress, but perfectly lightweight and strong materials like bakelite have come and gone. We're still using German silver from the 19th Century or...