OK.....Here comes the thin ice......Really surprised this sewing circle was allowed to go on for so long without someone stepping in and shutting it down,
reminds me of the section of the forum that has been shut down. I for one certainly do appreciate the depth of knowledge presented here, when the focus is the
equipment itself rather than a peripheral issue like dealers, their ethics, etc, etc. For the benefit of those of us just getting started in this hobby, maybe
we could take this in another direction, and have the old hands tells who the GOOD DEALERS are???? How 'bout that??? Todd
This forum began as Clark's Classic Bamboo Rod Forum, founded by Clark Davis for all who share a passion for classic rods. The forum is now owned by Whitefish Press aka Dr. Todd Larson - banjo.
For those who don't use English as their primary language we now have a translator for your language of choice hosted by Google.
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Is this dealer unethical or am I too picky?
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 hopkintoncane |
Lets Go Positive | #21 | ||
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Posts: 251 08/25/2008 17:15 |
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Budrichard |
#22 | |||
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Posts: 68 08/25/2008 17:29 |
From your previous 4 dealings, you only purchased one rod and the other three deals didn't occur for various reasons. The dealer can make a determination
that a sure sale to someone else is better than an iffy sale. The contract is only executed when money changes hands and sometimes not even then! Relax and
forget about it.
I sometimes wonder why rod dealers/sellers have not gone the way of the Internet Firearm community and gone to a 3 day inspection period. The buyer pays shipping and FFL fees both ways if the firearm is returned. There is presently some debate on another Forum as to the exact interpretation of the 3 day inspeption period but for the most part it's just that, inspect and return if not satisfied, no questions asked.-Dick |
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Zenkoanhead |
#23 | |||
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Posts: 1368 08/25/2008 18:11 |
Getting back to Goose's inquiry, from the responses here there is evidently a wide variation in business practices when it comes to secondhand rods,
ranging from the genteel to the cutthroat. With this in mind, I can say that Goose expected a higher standard than custom generally dictates. Our board has a
built-in 3 day inspection period (I am right on this?) which goes a long way in satisfying the competing interests of the parties. Many times an item is posted
as Sale Pending Funds, which is about as close to a handshake as one can get. However, it may be harder to get a "steal" from among the less
predatory, but more knowledgable board members. Don
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jz2 |
#24 | |||
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Posts: 141 08/25/2008 20:51 |
We as buyers have the option to choose where to spend our money. If I've had unsatisfactory dealings with a dealer or individual in the past, I will
usually pass on a purchase regardless of how rare or how good a price. I think that dealers have the same option to choose who they care to sell to.
On the individual selling side, I've had a number of satisfactory transactions through this site. but I've have enough unsatisfactory ones that I am reluctant to list items, especially flyrods, for sale here. I track prices/condition on sales here and on other sites. I think I tend to list my items below current market for their condition. I try to be conservative with my descriptions. If there is a flaw I didn't catch, I gladly make an adjustment. But all that said, even when the buyer pays the return shipping, the whole process is such a pain that it's not worth it financially or emotionally. I'd like to find a dealer where I can consign 20 rods I have to sell and just be done with it. If any dealer wants to take on my business please PM me. |
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 quashnet |
#25 | |||
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Posts: 2131 08/25/2008 22:00 Moderatus Muscae |
To answer gooseberryrods' first question - Is it ethical for dealers to cherry-pick their buyers thereby eliminating
knowledgable collectors and minimizing the chance of getting the rod returned? As a business owner does he have this right? - the answer is yes, he has
this right, and if he exercises it then you get to decide whether it is ethical or not, and act accordingly in the future. There are laws against certain
discriminatory business practices, but IMO I see no indication that they apply here.
The answer to the second question - Is one expected to pull the trigger immediately without having specific questions about a rod answered? - is no. But in a case like this one, where many opportunities exist for miscommunication, one should be realistic and recognize that negotiations may not lead to the outcome you had hoped for. When I am disappointed in this way and unable to buy a rod that I wanted, my personal mantra is: There will always be another rod. The deal that falls through was not the rod for me. I know that not everyone can take this philosophical approach, and disappointments can be deeply felt over the long-term. Surely some dealers have their gripes about buyers too. As you talk about these things, thank you for understanding that "outing" individuals who have disappointed us, whether buyers or sellers, is not a coping mechanism that can be exercised here. |
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john channer |
#26 | |||
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Posts: 623 08/25/2008 22:25 |
I've only dealt with dealers twice, both times was years ago and were both fixer uppers I bought from Dick Spurr for next to nothing, however, I have sold
quite a few new rods directly to the customer , no dealers involved and all have been pleasant experiences. One of the many things I don't understand about
this conversation is why the terms of the deal aren't made before any money or rods changes hands. If you don't want to pay shipping both ways or any
way, then make that agreement before the rod is shipped. I can't believe that anyone selling a rod of any caliber doesn't know exactly what condition
it is in, all it takes is a few minutes with some decent glasses on to be able to tell what shape it's in, from there out it's a matter of honesty and
integrity to accurately describe it and stand behind the terms of the sale. I don't buy rods, but if I was going to, I wouldn't agree to buy one if the
seller wasn't going to pay the return cost if it didn't live up to his description, that just tells me he's trying to pull one over on me. jmho
john |
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PayneRods |
Wherein the quality has diminished but the prices must need to rise: A modern look at emerging dealers | #27 | ||
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Posts: 21 08/25/2008 22:55 |
Well, you just made me vent...I have just about given up on the dealers today. Almost always buy new rods from modern makers directly or purchase rods that I
can place my hardworking hands upon. I have purchased from all the dealers to include catalog dealers and internet dealers past and present. What irritates
me is to find an obvious flaw that an "expert" dealer would know and try to pass off as something they did not see. Received the same gruff,
"Send it back" response that someone else said. I think there needs to be honesty both ways. As it has diminished, the sale of rods in this economy
will start to fall off except for truly rare birds. How about an excellent rod with one tip too loose at the ferrule and one tip too tight at the ferrule
fit? Two absolutely different tip thicknesses with an obvious non-original tip from another dealer. Restocking fees, come on...your description better be
right on then. A genuine imitation Bogdan? Well, in the spirit of the political climate, "I know Marty Keane, and you are not another Marty
Keane!" Others that I had dealt with may have called a finish excellent when in fact it was "excellent minus"...well, that judgement I can
understand. This will probably be terminated as will I, but I think that the appropriate issues have been raised. If you want to be a trustworthy, ethical
dealer then act as such...do not act as if you know it all if you do not. . Buyers: if you continually purchase rods and send them back because you did not
like the action or the finish is not what you agree upon, then expect no more. If you ID absolute flaws in the rods as I have done in the past, the dealer
owes you an "education credit or an honesty check in spirit" that can offset that restocking fee or split the shipping...hey, you are not just
unhappy with the rod, you just did their due dilligence that they failed to perform. Otherwise, you pay shipping both ways as advertised. Ouch....I guess I
will post no more....sorry. Enjoy the fall trout season, see you streamside.
Last Edited By: PayneRods 08/25/2008 23:23.
Edited 5 times.
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paxlev |
#28 | |||
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Posts: 711 08/26/2008 10:52 |
I think all the above valid comments. Some sellers are difficult. Some buyers are difficult. If Gooseberry has returned three out of four rods purchased on
approval, something is wrong somewhere in the relationship and that the two shouldn't be doing business with each other.
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bulldog1935 |
#29 | |||
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Posts: 6022 08/26/2008 11:06 Bulldog1935 |
whachagonnado? - nothing - there's nothing you can do
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mwleapjr |
My two cents... | #30 | ||
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Posts: 7 08/26/2008 12:09 |
There is always a 'buyer beware' element of any purchase of any kind... It is a special thing for a dealer to consistently earn the trust to be put
into the category of someone who watches out for his customers with an honestly and sincerity in finding an item they will be happy with, including finding it
as described with no obvious deficiencies an experienced eye should see. I would not attempt to categorize any of the current used tackle dealers, only to say
that my few purchases have been satisfactory, except for one rod returned with a not described deficiency for which I received an adjustment that help to
offset the return shipping on my next purchase, and with no restocking fee. I can see how someone would feel slighted if the return shipping and restocking
were not covered by the dealer for undescribed issues, but have to agree with the previous reply that noted that the business arrangements should be
established at the time of purchase, and then lived with by both parties. I do know from years in retail electronics sales in my younger days, that some
people are difficult to please, but you must treat them fairly, outlining the product and service expecations and whether you can meet them, or be happy with
them. The decision to buy or sell can then be made by both parties, based on whether they can perform or be satisfied with the expected results. Hidden
problems and failures in performance of course change the situaion completely, and buyers must 'beware' and make sure they have remedies for those
situations in the terms.
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gooseberryrods |
Just to clarify... | #31 | ||
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Posts: 551 08/26/2008 13:56 |
Paxlev wrote: " Some buyers are difficult. If Gooseberry has returned three out of four rods purchased..."
Ric- If you go back and read my original post, you will understand that I did not return three of four rods, only ONE. Rod #1- I liked it so I kept it. Rod#2- I returned because it had a problem with a ferrule that was not addressed in the description. To fix it would have required sending it out to someone or ferrule replacement. Rod # 3 - I asked him to hold for me, which he did but it was never shipped. I had to bail due to a family emergency which I explained to him. I felt bad about it so I VOLUNTARILY sent him $50.00 as a sign of good faith. After all, he had probably answered two or three phone calls from me about the rod so I felt I owed him something for his time. Rod#4- I asked for pictures of a rod not listed on his website and decided it was not what I wanted so I declined to buy it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it:) gooseberryrods |
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HERMES2069 |
Dealers Can't live with them can't live without them | #32 | ||
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Posts: 410 08/27/2008 06:57 |
I just can't help but jump in here.
I know all the dealers. Good or bad they get the rods, reels, and stuff you want. Goose, your chemistry with the dealer just didn't make it in his mind. Maybe he felt that his past dealings with you would jeopardize the sale of that rod in question. The fact is that you had no deposit on the rod. Some times It's not worth the effort. With these dealers your relationship with them is very important. I was able to get very sought after rod from a dealer because he wanted to sell me a rod. In most cases Cane rod dealers are retired or are doing it as a second job / hobby. I have dealers I avoid, and ones I deal with. Phil |
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paxlev |
#33 | |||
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Posts: 712 08/27/2008 09:40 |
Sorry, Goose. I should have reread your post before doing my posting. Still, sometimes its better to not force a relationship when two parties, seller and
buyer, don't seem to be on the same
 length for whatever reason. I have had rod builders who it became difficult to communicate with, and it just
seemed better to say send my deposit back and let's go our separate ways. Ric
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gofish60 |
#34 | |||
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Posts: 1786 08/30/2008 16:04 Registered User |
Any relationship between a buyer and seller where 75% of the deals are not consummated, for whatever reason, should probably be ended. Otherwise, you end up
with a situation where the dealer thinks that the customer is impossible to satisfy, and the customer doesn't trust the dealer's descriptions.
I've purchased and sold a lot of stuff on this forum, with only two minor problems, neither necessitating an actual return. The fact that I ask for and give very detailed descriptions and photos, if necessary, probably helps. I do this because I feel that the rods we deal with, especially those from a historical and irreplacable perspective, are too valuable to put at risk by shipping two ways without a very good reason. The very few problems I've had have been from the same few people who want a photo of everything I put up for sale and are never heard from again(do they collect them?), and a couple of guys who want things put on hold and then decide they don't want them after all, necessitating a new posting. All in all, however, I've been very happy trading here However, I have a few dealer friends who have had people they will no longer deal with, or even send a catalog to, because of the fact that there are some guys out there who are very happy with paying shipping both ways to be able to simply cast a rod or mic it for the taper. They've received rods back damaged, and in one case, got back a different rod from the one sent out. gofish |
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flyty |
#35 | |||
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Posts: 66 08/30/2008 22:09 |
It's hard to feel sorry for any buyer who has had a bad experience but won't name names. That encourages bad business practices by dealers and ends up
hurting the rest of us. Allowing an unethical dealer to continue to try and fleece uneducated buyers by not disclosing the dealer's name does the whole
community a disservice: good dealers don't want their reputations put in doubt by being placed under the umbrella of suspicion that will encompass all
dealers when a bad dealer remains unnamed; and uneducated buyers don't deserve to be thrown to the wolves. The names should be disclosed if asked. This is
supposed to be a community. A community shares information.
I also think a dealer should be able to respond to any accusations. Restricting the free flow of information on a forum can have unintended consequences: problems can get blown out of proportion as they make their way through the rumor mill behind the scenes, and false rumors can perpetuate themselves indefinitely on the internet. Why not allow open discussion of any problems? Then both parties can state their case, and buyers and sellers can decide for themselves who they want to deal with. I think gooseberryrods showed good faith by sending the dealer $50 when he wasn't able to complete one of the previous transactions. The dealer should have shown him some good faith in return by calling him on the specified date as promised to discuss the transaction. If the dealer had already sold the rod to another party, it seems fair to me that because the dealer backed out of the transaction, he should send gooseberryrods his original $50 back. To me there is a big difference between returning a rod that is materially as described, and returning a rod that has obvious undisclosed defects that any dealer should know about(replaced guide, repaired varnish, cracks, etc.). In the first case, it's understandable why a dealer might be disgruntled, but in the second case the dealer should be embarrassed and apologetic and have a good excuse--otherwise he is a crook. Is it ethical for dealers to cherry-pick their buyers thereby eliminating knowledgable collectors and minimizing the chance of getting the rod returned? It's possible that the dealer knew there was an undisclosed defect, and he knew that you would discover it and return the rod, so the dealer sold the rod to a customer that was more easily duped. In that case, it was extremely unethical.
Last Edited By: flyty 08/31/2008 14:10.
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gooseberryrods |
#36 | |||
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Posts: 552 08/30/2008 23:29 |
HERMES- You are right that I did not have a deposit on the rod because HE would not take a deposit. He gave me HIS word and stated that he did not need a
deposit and that he would hold the rod for me. In this business, that should be good enough. After all, I was the customer willing to plop down over $800 for a
fly rod, plus shipping and potentially other charges. In retrospect, I feel I have answered my own question. As a customer, I have the right to ask questions
to ascertain as much about the product prior to having it shipped. If he doesn't want to deal with me or others who want as much info up front as possible,
he will lose business, it's his choice. To be totally honest, I am more troubled about the way I was treated than losing out on a fly rod. I'll forget
about the fly rod but I will not forget about the way I was treated.
Now let's go fishing:) gooseberryrods |
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Serendipity |
#37 | |||
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Posts: 1221 09/02/2008 09:20 |
An interesting thread... I think gooseberry's question about ethics is has been answered by several listers: sellers can select their buyers; however, I
wonder if ethics is really the issue in this case? Buying and selling classic cane rods involves a lot of trust when the buyer and seller are compelled by
circumstance to deal with each other by email and phone - trust needs to be nurtured over time. I think the best way to avoid the situation that gooseberry
describes is to cultivate long term relationships with a few sellers. Those relationships will turn out to be more important than any abstract ethical
principle.
There is a wine shop that I frequent. When I stop in, I always look for Michael because I have been dealing with him for years. He knows what I like, I know what he likes. We are not exactly friends, but we share a common love of wine. We chat; we talk about family. I make a point to always thank Michael when he finds a wine I really like. If I taste something that he hasn't tasted, I send him an email describing my reaction to the wine. One thing I'm certain of: I will never run into a situation like gooseberry's with Michael. It's not easy to cultivate a similar relationship long distance, but it's not impossible to approach it. It takes a little work, but the effort is worthwhile because you not only feel more comfortable about each transaction, you feel good about the person you're buying from...and he feels good about you. It's that positive social context that makes all the difference and makes questions of ethics unnecessary. richard |
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spruce grouse |
#38 | |||
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Posts: 1094 09/02/2008 12:10 |
Richard,
I agree that it's a good idea to cultivate good relationships with a few dealers who you deal with often. One dealer I've become friends with over the years and even flew halfway across the country earlier this year to fish with him. However, I think your wine shop employee analogy doesn't really work. You can probably buy the same wine elsewhere, but choose the shop you go to because of the service you get, in particular from one individual. We can't always choose (most likely rarely) who is selling the rod we want. If one is looking for a particular reel or rod model or maker, one either deals with the person selling it (whether a dealer, board member or ebay seller) or holds off in hopes someone else is going to come along and sell the same item. And maybe the price will be higher then. It's a choice one has to make about who to deal with and not always an easy or fruitful one. |
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flyty |
#39 | |||
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Posts: 68 09/02/2008 15:56 |
It's not easy to cultivate a similar relationship long distance, but it's not impossible to approach it. It takes a little work, but the
effort is worthwhile because you not only feel more comfortable about each transaction, you feel good about the person you're buying from...and he feels
good about you. It's that positive social context that makes all the difference and makes questions of ethics unnecessary.
How would that work in this case? When the dealer sent gooseberryrods a rod with several obvious undisclosed defects, should gooseberryrods have thanked the dealer profusely up and down in order to build a good social relationship, so that in the future if the dealer had a rod that gooseberryrods really wanted, the dealer would sell it to him? Also, remember that gooseberryrods sent the dealer a $50 good faith payment when gooseberryrods couldn't complete a transaction. Even though the dealer tried to pawn a defective rod off on gooseberryrods, gooseberryrods still tried to maintain a good relationship with the dealer.
Last Edited By: flyty 09/02/2008 16:03.
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Serendipity |
#40 | |||
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Posts: 1222 09/02/2008 23:46 |
How would that work in this case? When the dealer sent gooseberryrods a rod with several obvious undisclosed defects, should gooseberryrods have thanked the dealer profusely up and down in order to build a good social relationship, so that in the future if the dealer had a rod that gooseberryrods really wanted, the dealer would sell it to him? Also, remember that gooseberryrods sent the dealer a $50 good faith payment when gooseberryrods couldn't complete a transaction. Even though the dealer tried to pawn a defective rod off on gooseberryrods, gooseberryrods still tried to maintain a good relationship with the dealer.I can't say what gooseberry should have done. It appears he did everything he could do under the circumstances. However, the history that gooseberry provides suggests that this was not a match made in bamboo heaven. Perhaps it should not have gone on as long as it did. There are many dealers and many rods. richard |
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