Question Regarding Rod Deposits

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john channer		#21	[url]	[-]
Posts: 626 09/02/2008 23:20	Everybody handles deposits differently, some very top drawer makers don't even ask for a deposit, they have enough cash flow and reputation that anything they build will sell as soon as they offer it. I charge $250, which is fully refundable if for any reason the finished rod doesn't live up to the customer's expectations, but that's just me and it's the only way I'm comfortable with taking orders, and I don't want the balance due until the customer has taken the standard 3 days to look it over and test cast it. All I ask is that it be returned in the same condition that he got it. I've either been good or lucky or both because I haven't had a rod come back yet. I had one customer who had to cancel an order after he payed the deposit because he either got laid off or had to change jobs. I fully understand situations like that and sent him his money back that day. To me a deposit is partly payment for the materials that go into the rod and partly a gesture of good faith. I believe Bob mentioned that,too. I will get a set of sticks ready before I receive the deposit, but I won't trim them to length or start tapering them until I get the deposit so I can use them for the next rod ordered if this one backs out. john
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oysterbamboo	another view on deposits	#22	[url]	[-]
Posts: 224 09/03/2008 12:04	I require a deposit of 25% on the rods I make. As a result, I can feel confident that a buyer is serious enough to come up with the other 75% when the rod is complete. Because I get serious customers, I very rarely get cancellations or have to deal with any ensuing drama. Because of this, when I DO get a cancellation, the deposit is returned, in full, no questions asked. If I made a rod for someone and they didn't like it, for any reason, I would return their money in full. I've never understood the idea of MAKING someone buy a rod. How is that good for business? A good reputation is worth a lot more than a few hundred bucks! These days, there is too much competition, too many choices, and too many quality rod makers out there for anything but the best customer service. Sounds like you got mixed up in some outdated business practices, and if he's not careful the maker will find himself outdated as well. Bill O. www.oysterbamboo.com
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Trouter2.thebasspond		#23	[url]	[-]
Posts: 28 09/03/2008 15:11	Amen to that also Bill O. A good reputation is worth more than a few hundred bucks. This builders rep is not very good anymore per the PM's asked to the poster by people on this web site. I was not a builder, but was in the retail business for many years and my word was my bond. I wanted these people back as customers and I wanted my good name spread by word of mouth. Sounds like the builder needs to get rid of his outdated business thinking. It turn me off to the point that I dont even want to know the builders name ..... Paul
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fishbates	me to	#24	[url]	[-]
Posts: 125 09/03/2008 15:54	Yep I made a deposit on a ron kusse rod and got tired of the wait so i asked bob for my $500 deposit back and he refunded my money, that is what i expect, i think the builder took advantage of you and it costs him nothing to return your money and even if he did start the rod unless he could not sell it i would say he could keep the deposit. Please send me an email as to who it is so i will know who not to order a rod from. dave fishbates@gci.net
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ibookje		#25	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1295 09/03/2008 16:31	Well said Dave! My opinion: This all is very sad for the original poster but it shouldn't be such a delicate issue in terms of what feelings will be hurt etc. It's a business transaction and it should be handled as such. By both parties. If the transaction is in turmoil, take your needed actions. If doesn't work out, get angry (= or any other thing you need to do to get the steam released) and take your loss. As Dave said, this maker took advantaged of you (and of his well known name). Jay Ps. If you want to pay back the maker, name the maker so we all know who he is and what to expect. But eventually we (the guys from this board) will know who he is... This thread can be a warning to other makers which is not a bad thing in my opinion.
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fishbum		#26	[url]	[-]
Posts: 186 09/03/2008 19:10	I have to agree with John Channer and Bill Oyster on this issue. As a small unknown maker I absolutly can't afford to foster ill-will with customers. I don't require a deposit but some customers offer and I accept. I do require full payment before I deliver a finished rod. Should it become necessary to refund their money I will gladly do it. What is the problem? If a maker dosen't deliver a product, he deserves no pay. Pretty simple. It dosn't matter how far along you are with the project. I have never understood a non-refundable deposit in the first place. I refuse to do business with anybody that requires a non-refundable deposit. There are just too many makers today making fine fishing rods to have to mess around with a non-refundable deposit. I'm done. I'll get off my soap box and go back to the shop. fishbum
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tjsshl		#27	[url]	[-]
Posts: 151 09/03/2008 21:41	Thank you for the feedback on this. I think it has largely reaffirmed my own feelings that there is little justification for keeping a deposit before any work is started on rod. Many have privately asked me the name of this builder and I'm happy to share that information but I also added that I was hoping that this deposit issue might still get resolved. I've sent a letter to the builder in the hopes of resolving this and I think its only fair to give the guy a chance to respond. I have stated privately that I would be happy to update this thread after I hear that response.
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bluno		#28	[url]	[-]
Posts: 138 09/06/2008 04:45	I do not have any problems with deposits but it should work in both ways: I had an experience with a builder, who did not keep the promised delivery time of the rod. Therefore, if a builder needs 5 years to build a rod instead 1 year (as originally promised), the deposit should be given back. I have also to allocate my resources in anticipation of the rod delivery. I would have bought another rod(s) from a different builder in the meantime. It was also one of my first rods in a standard length and I was virtually not able to go fishing.....
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HighMeadowFarm	Another situation with a rod maker I question how to deal with	#29	[url]	[-]
Posts: 90 09/06/2008 21:49	I hope this doesn't hijack the thread but I think it falls into the same situation and I'm at a loss at what to do at this point. If a moderator would like to put this under its own category that would be fine. I'm also obviously leaving out the name of this maker as I know it is against board rules and that point is well taken as this forum could be used in the wrong way if that started happening. I'd like to start by saying I am an experienced caster have many rods both antique/classic and many modern makers as well. I have had very pleasurable dealings with ALL other makers up until this point except for this situation. Starting back over 3 years ago I decided to buy a rod from this maker. This particular rod maker's rods range the gamut in pricing from very moderate to very expensive as far as modern rod makers go. I decided on a moderate priced rod that he makes of a famous old classic. I received the rod and found it to be a very poor casting rod. Now trying to be as fair as possible, I thought perhaps it was just me and my casting style. I even had two other experienced casters lawn cast the rod as well and we all felt it was inferior in many ways. I had been having regular friendly dialogues with this particular maker and he said to send it back no questions asked as that is his policy. He said he would gladly make me another rod which was all I asked for, not a refund. We decided to up the ante and I decided to purchase his highest quality presentation rod which is over $3,000. He said he even had one almost done that he was building on "spec" I suppose, but it definitely was not being built for me specifically. A few months went by and I received the presentation quality rod. Well, while this rod was stunning in appearance, it performed poorly as well. Again I had a few people lawn cast it. Again this builder said no problem send it back and this time I'll build a rod to the taper of your desire this time or refund the money my choice. I honestly felt pretty bad about having sent back the two rods to begin with as its not really in my nature. We chose a size and taper of a rod that I liked and would be happy to get. Well this went on for another year and a half with nothing more than "I'm about to start that rod" type dialogues. I stayed in touch and all was friendly and he had no problem taking the first rods back especially since the second rod was not a taper I had picked out. At about the 3 year mark things started turning south. I was completely fed up with the false promises and lost faith in his abilities to produce me a rod I would enjoy also. Note that at this point he is fully paid in excess of 3k! I didn't feel there were many in this brotherhood that I had to worry about not receiving a product or refund from. Well that was some poor trusting on my part. I proceeded to ask for a refund and he said he would refund my money as he had another buyer for that rod. I would even have been happy if he kept a modest deposit from the initial purchase. More than 6 months past without any dialogue or money refunded. I attempted to call and email regularly and have been been totally blown off at this point. My idol demands for a refund at this point continue to go unanswered. This was after many friendly attempts I might add. After close to 4 years I have no rod and I'm out a significant amount of money. I am in a business where I deal with customers myself regularly and I know some customers can be a pain in the ass and never satisfied types. I would not put myself in this category at all. I got other opinions on the rods in question and I also was promised a refund at the end of the day. I have been trying to figure out how to put an end to this mess and short of suing him I don't know what else to do. This maker does not live nearby and the thought of small claims court almost seems not worth it. I imagine he knows this as well and now will not pick up the phone or answer an email. He has my money and its down right fraud and theft at this point in my book. Although I have kept a voice mail from him which states the amount of money he was sent and that he will send it back to me. I've been stewing over this for quite some time and wanted to raise this issue on the board. What would you guys do at this point???
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ibookje		#30	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1304 09/07/2008 06:39	Phew.... that's quite a story. What I don't understand is why you agreed to go for the presentation version if you knew the taper(s) the maker uses doesn't fit your casting style so why should a presentation version fit your casting style? If it were me, I would never go for the highest cosmetics if I weren't sure the maker builds rods that fits my casting style, overall cosmetics, etc. I also don't get the idea of getting a rod all pimped up making it a very expensive fishing rod. But that's just me. About the question: Both you and the maker have put a lot of effort in communication, him building two rods, etc. I'd say, call it even and let the maker keep a small amount of money and get out of the idea of getting a rod from him. Jay
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HighMeadowFarm		#31	[url]	[-]
Posts: 91 09/07/2008 11:01	Jay, Questioning whether it is "worth it" to pay for presentation grade aesthetics is really not the issue. Those personal preferences having nothing to do with the fact that I have no product and no money from this transaction. But to answer your question as to why I decided to get a different rod from this maker is simple. He said the new rod was completely different in both taper design, casting quality and aesthetics. I was told to try that one out. The second rod was not a rod of my choosing but one he said he thinks I'd like and was already partially made. The third rod was supposed to be made to a taper of my choosing. It was never made. I'd love nothing more than to get a refund ! He won't send me money or a rod, let alone even communicate. It is a simple fact that this maker lives far away, has my money and whose ethics are in question to put it nicely. We are talking outright theft at this point. He won't return calls or emails. He won't send a rod and he won't send my money. This maker has sort of fallen off the radar lately and I'd guess we will hear less and less about. I've received many PM's regarding this maker and you would be suprised at how many people knew right away which maker I'm talking about. I'd like nothing more than to get the bulk of my money back, minus a deposit. I certainly would not say he has put a lot of effort in communication. I don't want a rod from him.
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BobS		#32	[url]	[-]
Posts: 943 09/07/2008 11:14	As I read it, the guy with the mask and gun has your $3000. You have nothing for it. Would take one last shot at settlement not involving attorney, while being committed to going the legal route if necessary. I'd send registered letter recounting the facts, demanding refund except for a modest "for your trouble" fee, and expressing intent to pursue legally. If this doesn't work, I'd go to an attorney and explore the options and costs.
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ibookje		#33	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1305 09/07/2008 11:43	This maker has taken himself into a nasty situation he won't come out unless he comes with a decent solution. But again, the non-communication is making things worse. I'd also start thinking about legal action... Jay
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flyty		#34	[url]	[-]
Posts: 70 09/07/2008 14:32	Take legal action just on principle. Also, he has had your $3,000 for many years. If you think he deserves some payment--which I don't see why since he has put you through a big hassle--the interest he earned on your money is good enough payment. At only 2% interest per year, that's $60/year he has earned in interest x 3 years = $180.
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HighMeadowFarm		#35	[url]	[-]
Posts: 92 09/07/2008 16:51	I am speaking with my attorney presently about what to do. It's a shame that I need to get to this point. I'll most likely contact the Better Business Bureau and local authorities in his jurisdiction as well. It's a shame that I can not really discuss this persons name in question to save others from a similiar situation. But I do understand that besides the libel aspect, some might bad mouth certain builders for their own agenda which may not fall into such a one sided situation as this. There are many great builders and wonderful people out there that I have dealt with previously and currently. But their are bad guys around in any line of business I suppose.
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SpringCreek		#36	[url]	[-]
Posts: 134 09/07/2008 21:53	I was in a somewhat similar situation a while ago. Assuming some part of the transaction involved U.S. Mail (either sending payment or shipping of the rods) you can file a mail fraud claim with the US Postal Service. It can carry more weight than a small claims court settlement. I would send a registered letter outlining your position with a copy of the mail fraud claim and let the maker know you will file said claim if a settlement can not be reached. Good luck. Jim
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Canebum		#37	[url]	[-]
Posts: 74 09/08/2008 04:37	PYochim wrote: It's nice to hear from a rod builder offering a perspective from the other end. In perusing Mr. Nunley's web page, I would feel comfortable dealing with him. Mr Nunley has built a custom rod for me before and he was more than accommodating in every way. A true gentleman to deal with in every way!
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Question Regarding Rod Deposits

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