Hackle capes and saddles to add?

0 Kudo

Author	Comment
peregrines	Hackle capes and saddles to add?		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 12/07/2008 16:18	Tags : hackle, colors Hi folks. I've enjoyed looking at the threads on the board and all the expertise, and thought I'd pick your brains for some advice in my first post here. I've been tying compara/sparkle duns, cdc stuff for the most part, but would like to tie more hackled patterns for adult caddis and may duns and spinners to match Eastern hatches, primarily Catskills /Delaware, PA streams and the Adirondacks. I'm mostly interested in adding natural colors as opposed to dyed, and particularly interested in various shades of dun. I've already got a few decent capes and saddles so I'm looking for your advice on adding some additional capes and saddles. I'd appreciate your advise on colors, and size range to determine capes vs saddle. Here's what I have already: Capes with a good range of sizes down to about 24's: Light Ginger Dark Dun Medium dun (dyed-it has that flat looking whiting silver color) Brown Cream Grizzly And a grizzly saddle I'm thinking it's past time to add some buggy natural colors from Collins or Conranch grade 3 or Pro Grade Herbert Miner to build up an inventory of colors, and spend bigger bucks down the road on better grades as they get picked over: Badger saddle for green drake duns and coffin flies silver or golden or both? Medium ginger or medium barred ginger?- cape or saddle? Dark brown dun saddle for March brown duns, Isonychia sized for 10-14? Rusty Dun saddle for Quill Gordon duns? Pale Watery Dun (or light dun?) cape for Sulphers, PED? Anything you would change or add? Based on Eastern hatches would you add a cape or saddle for specific hatches? Dark ginger? Honey dun? Light dun? Light tan dun? Other colors? Any preference for Collins 3 vs Conranch 3 vs Miner Bronze vs Miner Pro Grade in terms of bang for buck in initial outlay when comparing saddles to saddle or capes to cape? Thanks, I'm looking forward to your input. All replies are appreciated. peregrines
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
creakycane		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1935 12/07/2008 18:55	As you probably would guess, just collecting dry fly necks can be an avocation in itself...... I'd buy grade 3 Collins and Hebert-Miner Pro's in various shades of dun and ginger as you find interesting ones - with a few cream, straw, barred ginger and yellow- and olive dyed grizzlies. I would generally buy capes and forget the saddles for Catskill-style flies. That said, the small assortment you mention having will take you through many (most) of the hatches (size 12 - 18). Light, medium and dark dun Light and medium ginger and barred Straw and Cream Black only if it is very good quality (otherwise, use dark dun) A good dark ginger and you can forget about brown Grizzly pale and well marked. If tying traditional flies is your interest, raed the pattern books of flies you want to tie and buy hackle as you find it - you may not be able to find, for example, a perfect dun color in Collins #3 right now for the Gordon Quills you want to tie. Charlie's capes are mch more in demand now and prices have creeped up a bit. They are bargains still, but used to be down-right under priced. That's why I could not pass them up in any/all colors and probably have 100 + of his capes and more of Metz, Hoffman, Darbee, Stauffer, etc etc. You might need 8 or 10. Cane isn't the only thing to over-do! Don't overlook dyed Collins capes. Or the Hebert-miner dyed Brassy dun. very nice. Don't think you need to get grade 1 or platinum capes - you don't particularly for catskill flies. You don't need the small hackle for them and the 3's and pros have plenty of 12 - 18 hackle. Another rule of thumb is that when the hackle is wound, it will appear lighter on the fly than on the cape - which just means err on the side of darkish for capes as a light cape will produce a very light fly..... Last Edited By: creakycane 12/07/2008 19:06. Edited 2 times.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
peregrines	Thanks!!	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2 12/07/2008 20:41	Creakycane- Thanks very much for your reply. I'm still trying to get my head around the various "oddball" shades of dun like bronze dun, rusty dun, tan dun, pale watery dun, red dun, chocolate dun etc and what colors go with what dun hatches and spinner falls (as opposed to mixing standard colors found in most "modern" renditions of Catskill recipes like light ginger plus medium dun for example) but am slowly working my way through some of the old recipes to sort it out. That's the nice thing about comparaduns- with 2 dollar patches of bleached, light, medium and dark hair you're pretty much covered for 8 bucks. In any event, the colors and sheen of the Miner and Collins birds are a thing of beauty, and I can see the danger of not being able to stop buying everything in sight just to have some around. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll have to order them sight unseen online. At a minimum it sounds like a light dun, ginger, brassy dun, barred medium ginger, dark ginger would be a good start, along with some silver or gold badger for green drake duns and spinners, and some dyed grizzly. Thanks again for your response. Regards, peregrines Last Edited By: peregrines 12/07/2008 20:46. Edited 1 time.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
creakycane		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1936 12/07/2008 20:51	peregrines - That sounds like a good bunch of shades to start with.... You might enjoy this book by Frank Mele, especially the first piece entitled "Blue Dun" on this elusive shade and what it is....... http://www.amazon.com/Sma...-Frank-Mele/dp/1558219633 Also, The Book of the Hackle by Frank Elder is a good book on colors and types of rooster hackle. Good tying!
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
narcodog		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 154 12/07/2008 21:24	Don't forget a honey dun one of my favorites. Call Charlie and talk with him. He is a super guy. Also if you but directly from him he will offer you some of his special colors. Because I buy from him he sold me a No. 1 Cree, beautiful neck, you also get the saddle with the neck. His barred dun are also great. I have also gotten some Hebert Pro's from Jim Slattery, I spent time with him the past fall and he has more necks than anyone person should own. I usually buy the Pro grades or no 2's, only occasionally no.1's. Charlies prices will be going up Jan. 1.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
peregrines		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3 12/07/2008 21:37	Creakycane- Thanks very much for the link the book sounds great. Narcodog, thanks very much for the reply and great advice, I'll call Charlie and Jim this week. And I'll put Honey Dun back on the list. Oy veh when does it stop... the list gets longer and longer... Thanks again guys, peregrines
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
PA Limestoner	Hebert necks	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 25 12/07/2008 22:40	Years ago at a poorly attended fly show, I spent a good two hours with Ted Hebert, Dick Talluer, and the late Jim Bashline at their booth. Hebert had the most incredible selection of necks I had ever seen. He had a five colored olive toned cree that he would not sell no matter how hard I begged. He explained his dying process, as his roosters were in the dye bath right after they were killed. They were not skinned like the Hoffman/Whiting birds were. The freshly killed birds dyed beautifully in a dye concoction that I believe was human hair coloring. The birds were then skinned trimmed and allowed to dry. This is why his skins are not dyed like the Whiting were. Hebert was able to achieve the mot incredible selection of colors because he was an expert in the dying process. Many pro tyers will tell you his necks are among the best for tying traditional Catskill style dry flies. If you ever want to dye your own duns, try Miss Clairol Blue/Black. I have achieved some beautiful duns this way. Start with a cream colored cape and apply hair dye kept at 100 degrees F. rinse after a few minutes and examine. you can always put back in bath for a few more minutes.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
creakycane		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1937 12/07/2008 22:53	Yep, the old Heberts are excellent, particularly the gingers and some of the duns. The current Hebert-Miner necks from whiting are bigger neck than the old Heberts, but the colors and hackle feel are similar - to me, the current Hebert-Miners capes are a bit better for large dry flies 10 - 14 than Teds old necks, but the colors are a bit flatter than the old stocks. Overall, all of these necks mentioned in this thread are EXCELLENT compared with about any from 30 years ago.....
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
czkid	Conranch All the Way!!	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3790 12/07/2008 22:53 Moderator	Go with Connie... call the man and he'll tell you what he has that will match your needs. Having said all that, I've gotten to the point that the primary thing that I tie for fishing NC, TN, AR, GA, et al are soft hackles. They're not fancy, but they work. If you really want to get in with some serious tyers... come to Sow Bug in March in Mountain Home, AR. Great venue, wonderful folks, and the fishing should be awsome. Three days of nothing but tying... and folks from all over the world are there. Ralph
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
peregrines		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4 12/07/2008 23:49	PA limestoner- Excellent info, thanks very much. I tie a lot of saltwater stuff and plan to be making a mess in the kitchen dying some saddles for flatwing streamer patterns in various pastel shades this winter. And now some duns too it sounds like... And Ralph, I'll be calling Denny too, I've been eyeing his JV Hens for soft hackle, and it looks like he has some great stuff. I've never used any of the Conranch stuff before, but have heard great things about the quality and the value of his hackle, and by all accounts he and Liz are a pleasure to deal with. The Sow Bug sounds great and it would be great to see those tyers in action and soak up a few pointers. I'm looking forward to getting some from all three Hebert Miner from Jim, some necks/saddles from Charlie and some conranch from Denny. In addition to the stuff I listed, I have a few older (30+ years) necks that have been pretty picked over, and there's no comparison with the stuff available today in terms of feather length and sizes, stem thickness, and size of the neck itself. Thanks again to all. You've given great info, and I appreciate all the help you've given to me. I'll let you all know what Santa brings. (Too bad he's not paying for it.) peregrines
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
invariamt		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 13 12/08/2008 09:00	You really don't have to buy "sight unseen" on line http://greatfeathers.com/search.aspx?find=collins Regards, Mike http://www.greatfeathers.com/catalog/
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Gnome		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1806 12/08/2008 09:57 King of the Gnomes	Whiting Saddles in the right size and color are tops in my book. When you can tie a dozen or more fly's from a single feather that are western hackled and you can almost double that number with a catskill style hackled dry with only 5 wraps. And creakycane is right; the quality of what we have to work with now compared to thirty yeas ago is a quantum leap forward. And PA limestoner, a question for you; What do you base your statements about Whitings dye process on? I know for a fact that the Whiting dyed necks are dyed on the head before skinning. (I was doing that for whiting eighteen years ago along with supervising the harvesting and curing process) And the use of clairol hair dye goes back to when Henry Hoffman owned that flock and probably farther than that. These are hard and fast facts. A former hackle herding gnome Jeff Last Edited By: Gnome 12/08/2008 15:15. Edited 1 time.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Eric Peper		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 56 12/08/2008 10:15	In the last couple of years, I noticed the Harrops had begun using a lot of dun grizzly in their dry flies. I found a lovely dun grizzly neck (Hebert-Miner) in Trouthunter (distributor for the House of Harrop materials and flies) last June and after tying a couple of flies with it I understood why the Harrops had swung this way. I agree, too, with your pale watery choice. The Hebert-Miner necks in this color remind me very much of a Miner neck I got in Minneapolis about 30-odd years ago, and from which I still pluck tailing fibers. Just an aside . . . I happened to walk into Mike Lawson's shop a day or so after they'd gotten a shipment from Whiting. There was a Hebert-Miner "Pro" neck on the rack that was labeled "Champagne," and the color was so striking, I simply had to have it. Tied a few with it, and I had NO regrets. EP
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
narcodog		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 156 12/08/2008 11:45	Gnome, I have raised and killed chickens (for eating) and when I skinned them the inner skin never looks like a processed pelt. Do thy run them through a machine that gets all of the fat and tissue off the pelt?
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Gnome		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1810 12/08/2008 15:12 King of the Gnomes	NarcoDog, the birds are skinned and placed on an untreated chip board and hung in a dry dark place and kept at a fairly high temperature 90 degrees plus and that is pretty much it. Fat volatilizes at a very low temperature and will whick to the chipboard and you do need to have a fairly clean pelt to start with. Any fat or meat left after drying 4-6 weeks will peel off the pelt. and if you want to go one more step which Whiting no longer does and that is soak your cured pelts in white gas for a week or two. this will make them impervious to the Dermestid beetle which is known as the "Curator's bane". And will eat the skin right off of the feathers if given the chance. Jeff give me a call and we can talk birds.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
narcodog		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 158 12/08/2008 16:43	Thanks.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
peregrines		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 12/08/2008 19:34	Mike - thanks for posting your link, I've heard very good things about you and your shop, and the range of hard to find range of feather you stock. And the pics of your Grade 2 Collins give a great idea of the range of colors in his individual birds. I'm thinking of going with the 3's at the moment, just to get a few different colors and shades for now, recognizing that the 2's might be a better deal in the long run with a wider range sizes and better quality feathers. Jeff- you're right about the Whiting saddles. They're a pleasure to tie with, and excellent quality. Just looking to get some "old school" colors and shades especially in the duns. Eric- thanks for answering a couple questions i had but didn't ask--- The Hebert Miner grizzly dun and champagnes on the whiting site http://www.whitingfarms.com/prod_hm.html looked grat to me, but I was wondering what to use them on in the East-- I was thinking the dark champagne might be good for Callibaetis out west, and maybe a light champagne for Cahills here. And the dun grizzly looks really buggy, now i know why... Great eye candy. Thanks again to all. There's a wealth of knowledge on this board, and I'm looking forward to soaking up as much as possible from you guys and you've really helped a lot. peregrines
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
PA Limestoner		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 26 12/08/2008 21:38	Gnome, I stand corrected. I went back to my hackles and saw that a few were dyed after skinning(Olive dyed grizzly), but others were dyed as you say. Most of my capes are Hoffman and Hebert stock. Our local fly shop did dye some capes, so maybe that's how I came to an erroneous assumption. Nevertheless, Ted Hebert did get some fantastic dyed capes. In terms of use of hair coloring, with about every third woman wearing some hue of red in her hair, the possibilities are endless for a myriad of ginger to honeyed duns for the creative tyer who dyes his/her own capes.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
Eric Peper		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 58 12/09/2008 10:06	peregrines wrote: Eric- thanks for answering a couple questions i had but didn't ask--- The Hebert Miner grizzly dun and champagnes on the whiting site http://www.whitingfarms.com/prod_hm.html looked grat to me, but I was wondering what to use them on in the East-- I was thinking the dark champagne might be good for Callibaetis out west, and maybe a light champagne for Cahills here. And the dun grizzly looks really buggy, now i know why... Great eye candy. peregrines My initial app for the champagne neck was on a handful of elkhair caddis -- not matching any species in particular, simply going for a shade. I'm about to start my winter tying -- today actually -- and I know I'll find some other places for it. The dun grizzly is used as a substitute for most apps where I'd normally use a dun. EP
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote
nwcollector	Cree	#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 43 12/11/2008 15:32	I've just recently acquired a Whiting cree cape. It's sitting in a safe place amongst my other prime hackles. I have not used it yet, but winter is setting in and I'll get more serious about tying for next season. I've wanted to add a cree cape for a while now, but it has been hard to get just the right one.
Interact My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Invite Blocking Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Reply Quote

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

Hackle capes and saddles to add?

Hackle capes and saddles to add?

Quick Reply