Let me clear up my viewpoint a little. I have absolutely nothing against vintage cane rods. I used to fish them exclusively and love them as karmic touchstones
to the past. I just got tired of removing sets, fixing ferrules, getting occasional ferrule breaks and rewrapping rods. Not that some of that doesn't apply
to modern rods too, but I've running into it less with the few rods I built myself or have parts from other makers that I finished out. Ralph is absolutely
right about variability among makers when replicating old tapers, in-fact there was enough variability among the classic mass production houses that you'll
find almost the same variability among the Heddons, Grangers, Phillipsons, et al. I'm pretty sure that was because it was a many person operation,with
almost that many variables thrown in. What I would do, if I were looking to buy a rod from a modern maker and not spend money I couldn't afford, is to
first find a maker that uses a mill to do his blanks and will make you a blank, then I would try and find a way to test cast one of his finished out rods, in
exactly the configuration I was looking for and then order a blank and finish it out myself. There may be a little variation over what the tested rod was, but
I'll bet it will be a lot less than going from a classic to somebody's copy. Of course, if I could afford the rod I tested, I would insist on buying
that very rod, especially if it "talked" to me. Again, this is purely from my experience and I'm glad that this has sparked such an interesting
discussion.
This forum began as Clark's Classic Bamboo Rod Forum, founded by Clark Davis for all who share a passion for classic rods. The forum is now owned by Whitefish Press aka Dr. Todd Larson - banjo.
For those who don't use English as their primary language we now have a translator for your language of choice hosted by Google.
0 Kudo
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Old vs. New
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 Canewrap |
Re: Old vs. New | #21 | ||
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Posts: 71 01/08/2009 14:41 |
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CANEnABLE |
old / new debate | #22 | ||
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Posts: 13 01/08/2009 17:06 |
Here's another spin on the old/new debate. A humble Montague Sunbeam cost $12 in 1950. Today, the price
adjusted strictly for inflation would be $108.47. My question is this: would you be happy today fishing a cane rod that was worth $108.47 ? Would a modern day
maker be satisfied to be paid that kind of money for a rod?
"Before I came to this country, they told me the streets in America were paved with gold. When I got here, I learned three things: Number one, they weren't paved with gold. Number two, they weren't paved. Number three, they expected me to pave them." We owe a higher standard of living to those who paved the way. The fact is fewer fishermen would be satisfied fishing a Montague Sunbeam today as compared to 1950. Expectations are higher. Ingenuity, innovation and technology have made for better fly rods, automobiles etc. and, present blip excluded, put the money in our pockets to pay for them. Here's to being thankful for the past and looking forward to the future. Salute! |
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Canewrap |
Re: Old vs. New | #23 | ||
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Posts: 74 01/08/2009 18:48 |
Bravo CANEnABLE, very well put.
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czkid |
DNA | #24 | ||
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Posts: 3818 01/08/2009 20:44 Moderator |
I'm an engineer, with many rod maker friends... but I'm not a rod maker. My specialty in engineering was manufacturing, making sure that the the
product that came out the end of the production line was as envisioned by designer/customer on the input side. Bamboo flyrods are highly variable even with
great control, simply because you're dealing with a natural product... bamboo, and it varies between certain limits. But the raw material, bamboo, is
transformed into something special by the way it's handled. Most manufacturers were relatively consistent... but some weren't.
DNA means 1) Materials and 2) Processes, as well as 3) Design. Let's go at it backwards.... 3) Design....... that's the taper folks, and it's only 1 of 3 elements, although an important one. AND those little items like guide placement and wrap types, etc. 2) Processes.... How were the basic elements contained in 1) Materials handled during the manufacturing process... i.e. heat treatment, glue cures, coating processes, all to include times/temperatures and sometimes even relative humidiy/moisture content. Even nebulous little things like wrap tension can have an effect. 1) Materials.... To the basic bamboo element you must add... quality/power fiber density of the cane, what glue was used, what finishing materials were used (i.e. impregnation/varnish/etc), types of ferrules, etc. etc. etc.......... Am I being picky.... damn right I am.... because when you say CLONE and put the other fellow's designation on the rod, you say that you've taken all of the above and more into consideration. Ralph |
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FWdB |
#25 | |||
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Posts: 200 01/09/2009 06:48 |
Personally I don't really take a rod's age into account at all. If it speaks to me and feels, casts and looks good to me, it's a rod I like.
There's certainly something of a "mojo-factor" involved with older rods, but even then I seem to prefer them restored, looking at my own modest
collection.
Wilfred de Bruijn
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 bulldog1935 |
#26 | |||
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Posts: 6605 01/09/2009 08:31 Bulldog1935 |
CANEnABLE also answered why we like our Heddons with bigger nos. than 13, thank you.
the rods are never obsolete - the marketing is.
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poolhopping |
#27 | |||
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Posts: 109 01/09/2009 10:33 |
old rods with issues have allowed me to experience more rods. most have cost between 100.00 and 150.00 dollars and with 5 months of winter the minor repairs
don't cut into my fishing time. i get a kick out of catching a fish on a rod that's older than me and probably hasn't seen the water in the last
10 or 20 years.
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bdcanefly |
#28 | |||
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Posts: 850 01/09/2009 15:15 |
Those that know me, know I love old rods..........
Why??? The feel, I have cast many current rods and none I have found have the feel. The rod is part of you, like the rod is connected to your arm as you cast. You know what I am talking about. I did buy a new rod or two to try, gave them away.
BDC
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Boo |
#29 | |||
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Posts: 1309 01/09/2009 16:00 |
Those that know me, know I love old rods.......... Do you think it's because new rod makers tweak most classic tapers to be faster i.e. the graphite age? |
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tiptop |
#30 | |||
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Posts: 456 01/09/2009 16:26 |
Pretty tough making sweeping generalizations about feel, quality, action, etc. in new vs. old. Very old rods I think tend to be slower but there are plenty of
examples of vintage rods (1940 and later) that have wonderful action and feel and are equal to anything being built today. When I fish vintage rods, it's
not at all that they feel or cast better than my new rods, but rather that I enjoy using a finely crafted tool that has gone through the hands of many before
me.
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JeffK.fiberglassflyro... |
#31 | |||
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Posts: 4 01/21/2009 16:47 |
I like the history of our sport and like to fish all sorts of old rods to get a feel for how older techniques worked. I get a kick out of that. Most of the
old techniques work pretty well BTW. However, if I am going on a trip, hiking into a remote spot, or an leaving a rod in my car in case fishing appeals to me
on my commute home then I will be a new rod or a glass or graphite rod that can take some abuse.
I too am engineer and purchase 100 year old more or less rods that need work and fix them up. I do this partly because I am cheap/thrifty and partly because I love to take old tackle apart and see how it was made. Finding a mint rod cheap at a yard sale is a great feeling for a day or so, but in the end I get enjoyment by messing with old tackle and figuring out some of our ancestors did things. |
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tedgolden |
#32 | |||
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Posts: 2686 01/21/2009 17:05 Moderator |
I love to take old tackle apart and see how it was made.....
figuring out some of our ancestors did things. Me too. |
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aquabonito |
#33 | |||
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Posts: 945 01/21/2009 18:14 Angry Andy |
CANEaBLE,
Why are you bothering to post on this forum? Seems to me you should be posting elsewhere on some neo fly rod forum! 
"You can't make new old friends"
 Andy
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Pete from MA |
#34 | |||
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Posts: 12 01/21/2009 18:53 |
OLD vs New your topic is something I'm right smack in the middle of.
I've just turned a little life milestone and only now I can be more serious with Bamboo. I just sat down and started laying out a plan for building my rod collection (i was laying out a 12 year plan)....and my first choice was do I build around some of the builders of the past ...or do I start building with contemporary builders . I made the decision to build my collection with the builders of today. My plan is to rotate (on a yearly basis) between picking up a new rod and picking up a reel. Since there are so many amazing rods and each has its own unique feel. I was going to build a collection that would let me enjoy the variety of rods that are available. It will be like a new date each time I get to go fishing...dedicating a little time with a beautiful special lady. My first 2 rods will be a walt Carpenter & a Dana Gray .... and then I'll keep adding on with a Marc Aroner and R.D. Taylor ... maybe Mario Wojnicki and if I'm so lucky per Brandin... I've been lining up my orders on a schedule to try and pace them out ... anyway the goal is to have a nice cross section of tapers from the various builders so I can enjoy the uniqueness of each one. anyway thats my plan. I was going to try and recreate a collection from the old builders Leonard, Payne , Young, Gillum et alia but when it comes down to it ...I found it was hard to trust what I was buying...its much easier to get an original from a current builder than to ensure legitamacy of an older rod. anyway ... my plan is to build on the new.... and retirement will be fun!!!
Last Edited By: Pete from MA 01/21/2009 19:02.
Edited 2 times.
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CANEnABLE |
#35 | |||
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Posts: 21 01/21/2009 21:34 |
aquabonito wrote: Dear Angry, Nice to meet 'ya. I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant (not original; I read it on a coffee cup one time). There's very little "neo" about me. Ask my kids and grandkids. I'd rather drive a three-on-the-tree, straight six pick-up than a Hummer SUT. So, why am I here? To paraphrase, I'm just trying to meet some old new friends. If you think about it, the rod building masters of yesteryear were once "neo". They created classics. The fact that new makers try to imitate their work is a real tribute. I applaud the talent and artistry of many new makers. It keeps the tradition alive. I also sincerely appreciate the knowledge that posters on this forum are willing to share. As someone new to bamboo, I haven't found a better venue for learning. The Pennsylvania Dutch have a saying. "We grow too soon old and too late schmart". I guess that's me. CnA P.S. Bought my first bamboo rod last week and while my wife was out of town, I found myself taking it to bed with me. Sick, I know! |
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WatercolorMan |
#36 | |||
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Posts: 1264 01/22/2009 03:36 |
This is simple . . . . Like the song says . . . . "Love the one your with"
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aquabonito |
#37 | |||
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Posts: 947 01/22/2009 05:56 Angry Andy |
Sorry CANEWARP and CANEaBLE, got you mixed up with each other.
"You can't make new old friends"
Andy
Last Edited By: aquabonito 01/22/2009 07:44.
Edited 2 times.
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mac7x |
Old vs. New? | #38 | ||
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Posts: 846 01/22/2009 11:40 |
My favorite 4 weight is both. A 7½' L & C, (Heddon), the one original tip that came with it casts fine, but takes a set very easily. But with the new
tip by AJ, it's an altogether splendid rod.
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bdcanefly |
#39 | |||
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Posts: 857 01/22/2009 13:33 |
Boo wrote: Could be, I do like a slower rod. just not sure yet as I have not cast all modern rods yet!!!!
BDC
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sharps4590 |
#40 | |||
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Posts: 83 01/22/2009 17:36 |
CANEnABLE.....please forgive me but allow me to re-phoeneticize your Pennsylvania Dutch saying to Missouri German..."ve grow too soon oldt und too late
schmart". Entirely the same thing but I like the phoenetics better....hehe. And as I said, please forgive me.
Vic |
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