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 Dnb57 |
Resorcinol Formaldehyde Adhesive |
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Posts: 5 01/10/2009 20:12 |
Has anyone used this particular adhesive? There's a couple of different places that sell this brand. I ran across it from Aircraft Spruce. http://www.aircraftspruce...og/wppages/cascophen.php. Seems to be a little cheaper on the
pocketbook.
Dave |
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AJ Bamboo |
#1 | |||
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Posts: 759 01/10/2009 22:03 |
tens of thousands of rods have been made with that glue, works great for cane. the dark purple color will however show to the world every last problem you have
with your glue seam. can be a bit disheartening for a newbie
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Dnb57 |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 6 01/10/2009 22:36 |
I heard that this new formula doesn't create the dark red lines, more of a dark brown. Flamed cane, wouldn't the lines be less visible? Practice,
practice,practice...right?
Dave |
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greendrake ll |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 1024 01/11/2009 00:47 |
Dnb57 wrote: The new formula does indeed cure brown,BUT it reverts to the color the old stuff ,usually within 6-8 months.If they ever come up with a way to make resorcinol cure to the color of bamboo and stay that way I think the majority of rodmakers would use it.I'm convinced that it's the best glue out there but the only ones to get away with glue lines caused by resorcinol were Garrison and Orvis(yes occassionally Bill Phillipson too). |
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Dnb57 |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 7 01/11/2009 01:04 |
Well maybe URAC 185 would be a better choice. I was looking at that brand of resorcinol because it didn't need to be heat set and it could be used in a
colder enviroment.
Dave |
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J W Foster |
#5 | |||
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Posts: 33 01/11/2009 10:00 |
Hi Dave
There is no requirement to heat set URAC..Nelson variety. The only drawback I saw with Cascophen was what I thought was a pretty short working time..maybe a min or two. The binder cord was setting up on the blank when I went too slowly. Just my experience. Regards Jerry |
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Dnb57 |
#6 | |||
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Posts: 8 01/11/2009 15:40 |
Thanks Jerry, that's more what I was looking for. I appreciate everybody's input concerning glue lines, but I 'm more interested in being able to
finish a blank before everything sets up.
Dave |
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Tom Smithwick |
Resourcinol | #7 | ||
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Posts: 455 01/11/2009 18:51 |
Dave - I'm going to be a contrarian and suggest that you do use it for your first rod, because it will show you your mistakes, if any, which will help you
eliminate them on your next rod. Some other things to think about. Like Urac, the glue needs some moisture in the cane to work. If you just heat treated the
cane, either wait a couple weeks, or slightly dampen the strips. Add a small amount of alcohol to thin the glue. I mix by volume, which is 4 parts liquid to 3
parts powder, if I remember correctly. I usually add a bit less than 1 part alcohol. The stuff does darken with age, so you have to be careful to get all the
residue off the blank, otherwise you will have wine colored splotches on the rod in 6 months. Finally, cure the glue at temperatures over 70°, if you can get
into the 80-90° range, so much the better.
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Dnb57 |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 9 01/11/2009 19:39 |
Tom,
Thanks for chiming in. Are you able to clean up with water? I thought I read somewhere that filing the blank instead of scraping was better for cleaning the blank. Do you rebind the blank after cleanup? How long should it hang in the drying cabinet. Do you have more working time if the glue is sitting in cold water or a bowl of ice? Dave |
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canesmith |
resorcinol | #9 | ||
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Posts: 5 01/11/2009 20:29 |
I strongly second Toms advice. Go ahead and flame your cane darkly and it won't show the glue lines as much, but you will learn a lot about glue lines and
what you need to do to correct mistakes.
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Tom Smithwick |
Resourcinol | #10 | ||
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Posts: 456 01/11/2009 21:38 |
Dave - Clean up is with alcohol. The glue dries very tough, and can not be scraped off the blank. You do have to file and sand. The only glue you can unbind
when it is not fully cured is a slow epoxy, like Epon. All the other glues have to be fully cured before being handled. Drying time is on the can, and varies
quite a bit with temperature. Yes, you will get more working time by chilling the glue. My workshop is usually between 60-70°, and I have never had a problem
getting a 3 piece rod together.
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PA Limestoner |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 48 01/11/2009 21:57 |
Tom's advice is right on as usual. I've known him for over 15 years and he is one of the most knowledgeable builders around. I would add a few
recommendations of my own. Keep the liquid resin in the refrigerator until needed - all urea formaldehyde glues have a certain shelf life, and refrigerating it
extends that shelf life. Buy new glue every year from a supplier that sells enough of it to always guarantee fresh product. Glue is relatively cheap, and 20-30
hours of hard work can be lost to old glue. I strongly recommend anybody starting out to only glue ONE section a day so as to prevent premature setting of the
second or third section. By gluing only one, already chilled glue not long removed from the fridge will be easier to clean up after binding, and straightening
can be more carefully done. Also the binder can be cleaned more easily before the glue has set. after a few rods are completed, you will get a feeling as to
how you can speed up the process, but at first go slowly. Tom McDonnell
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Dnb57 |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 10 01/11/2009 22:49 |
Thank you. I'm going to do the resorcinol as planned. I'll take your advice Tom and Tom and do a section at a time until I get the feel of the process.
I was thinking of ordering a file from Bellinger to remove the glue. Are you using denatured alcohol or isopropyl alcohol to thin the mixture?
Dave |
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john channer |
#13 | |||
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Posts: 687 01/12/2009 00:11 |
Just a side comment here about thinning glues or anything else. Isopropyl alcohol is rubbing alcohol used for rubbing sore muscles and cleaning areas on your
body where you are going to get an injection, it is NOT a thinner for any known form of glue, varnish, shellac or lacquer. if you have some, put it back in the
bathroom where it belongs, it's not useful in any way for making rods. What you want to mix shellac with, thin epoxy, clean a blank or put in your alcohol
lamp is denatured alcohol that you buy at the hardware store, not the drugstore, it's found right next to and in the same color can as the mineral spirits,
turpentine and lacquer thinner. Excuse me if this sounds like a rant, it's not really, I just see this question asked many times in many places and nobody
ever mentions that it's the wrong stuff for the job.
john |
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Dnb57 |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 11 01/12/2009 02:08 |
John,
I use denatured alcohol in my bubble buster to burn any fuzz off my wraps and I use my lamp to remove any bubbles in my threadmaster coating on my wraps. I use isopropyl 90% to cleanup any epoxy that gets on my hands or my blanks and to cleanup my tools. I haven't used resorinol before, that's why I was asking for an explanation. I have built several flyrods over the years. I don't do any woodworking so I'm not versed in varnishes or what you would use for thinning agents. |
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weightforward |
Resourcinol | #15 | ||
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Posts: 5 01/12/2009 12:37 |
Tom,
When it comes to splotches, do you need to leave the enamel on the bamboo until after the glue up? Dave |
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Tom Smithwick |
Resourcinol | #16 | ||
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Posts: 457 01/12/2009 15:15 |
Dave - It can be done that way, and then you are sure. My procedure is to get the enamel off at the beginning of final planing. To get Resourcinol off the
blank, I carefully file until it's almost all gone, then finish with a card scraper with a burr rolled into the edge. The burr gets just under the surface
and lifts off the remaining glue, and it also leaves a smooth, polished looking surface. If you look carefully using a strong light source, any remaining glue
residue will show as a hazy spot compared to the polished power fiber look. My third rod is a Garrison 193 midge rod that I still like a lot. It has a bunch of
splotches, especially on the tips. It does bother me, but not enough to refinish the rod. I console myself by remembering a Garrison original I once saw that
also had them. I'm probably the only one in the bamboo community that laments the loss of the original purple formula. I liked the way it looked on a blond
cane rod.
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brooksriver |
#17 | |||
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Posts: 97 01/12/2009 15:42 |
I'm not a maker, but FYI, here's an example of a rod with resourcinol glue lines. Personally, I don't think the glue lines are objectionable.
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fishbum |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 232 01/12/2009 16:59 |
The tinted glue lines on a rod glued with resourcinol should be viewed as a badge of honor. They speak of the care the maker took in selecting the very best
componants available when they made the rod.
fishbum |
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BigTJ |
#19 | |||
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Posts: 659 01/12/2009 20:00 |
The trick of wiping down the blank with a barely damp (not wet) sponge (from the Garrison book) works well for me for cleaning the blank before I start
straightening the blank. I do one section at at time, glue, bind, wipe, straighten. I pull the string off after 24 hours, file with a mill bastard then sand
with 220, 600 and final with 0000 steel wool. You probably know this but I'll say it anyway leave some glue after filing, you just want to take the high
stuff off to make the sanding less work. If you take the blank down clean with the file and don't leave some glue you're removing cane not glue by the
time you get to the 220. Glue comes off pretty darn fast, after sponging the blank not much remains on the outside. In my limited experience this process works
for me. Also there is this new-fangled sandpaper at home depot that lasts longer doesn't build up so fast, try it you'll like it. Comes cheaper per
sheet in a big box of 10 sheets or so.
Tom you are not the only one who loves the purple lines on the rods, I think they look great and use resourcinol for my rods. It might be my environment or varnish or I'm color blind or whatever but my glue lines are staying fairly brown over time, still waiting for them to turn on my first rod.
Last Edited By: BigTJ 01/12/2009 20:07.
Edited 3 times.
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Dnb57 |
#20 | |||
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Posts: 12 01/12/2009 22:00 |
Do you use water to clean up your Binder? I too, like the glue lines that resorcinol leaves. Those are good tips, thanks
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