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Hardy - Korea vs. England

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FishingRabbi	Hardy - Korea vs. England		Lead	[-]
Posts: 51 01/13/2009 15:06	Tags : None I spoke to the Hardy rep at the Denver Fly fishing Show last Sunday. As I was admiring the new Perfect reel we started discussing country of manufacture. He said that all Hardy reels except for the Perfect were not only made in Korea but were better than the reels when made in England! (Umm, an interesting observation.) Also, when I mentioned that a red agate line guard would have looked better, he said they were saving the red for the St. Georges coming out next year. Just thought it was interesting. Best to all, the FishingRabbi
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FWdB		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 204 01/13/2009 16:12	FishingRabbi wrote: ... St. Georges coming out next year. Just thought it was interesting. Interesting indeed! I'm going to start saving. Did he happen to mention what size(s)? Wilfred de Bruijn The Lowlands Of Holland
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reelsmith		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 666 01/13/2009 16:17	FishingRabbi wrote: I spoke to the Hardy rep at the Denver Fly fishing Show last Sunday. As I was admiring the new Perfect reel we started discussing country of manufacture. He said that all Hardy reels except for the Perfect were not only made in Korea but were better than the reels when made in England! Well, of course he said that ...and it may very well be true ...in fact, I hope it is. But, if it weren't true he would not have told you so. It's his job to say the new reels are the latest and the greatest. Time will tell if he speaks the truth. Sorry, I'm in sales and can be a bit cynical at times.
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rodzilla		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 121 01/13/2009 16:18	were better than the reels when made in England! Of course he would. He's trying to sell them, eh?
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FishingRabbi		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 53 01/13/2009 16:46	He did not mention sizes, he did say that prices would be comparable to the Perfects. FR
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seattlesetters		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 521 01/13/2009 16:46	Yep. Spoken like a true salesman. It will take about 100 years or so to prove him right, though.
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reelsmith		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 667 01/13/2009 17:19	seattlesetters wrote: It will take about 100 years or so to prove him right, though. I don't think I have that kind of time.
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seattlesetters		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 523 01/13/2009 17:30	reelsmith wrote: seattlesetters wrote: It will take about 100 years or so to prove him right, though. I don't think I have that kind of time. And he knows it!
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dder		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 149 01/13/2009 19:51	A red agate St George does sound pretty tempting though ,doesn,t it,may be they will do one with a 3 screw latch as well. Seems we all were horrified when they moved and them ordered so much from Harris a year later the page shut down. A red agate might be ticket to a few extra sales,time will tell,hopefully we all got time for that at least. Daryl
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Greg Reynolds		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1856 01/13/2009 20:24 Orvis Database Founder	I'd buy one in LHW if they can price them within reach...
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orange caddis		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 199 01/14/2009 00:13	Greg Reynolds wrote: I'd buy one in LHW if they can price them within reach... I spoke with a hardy rep as well and he told me the same thing, they will be making the St George with a red agate next year. He also told me that they will continue to come out with a re-release of old classic reels on a yearly basis that will be made in England. All reels made in england will be in the same price range as the new perfects are. All other reels are made in Korea and will continue to be as that is the only way they can sell the reels at the new prices. He also said that they are just as good as the reels made in England. Please don't shoot the messenger just reporting on my conversation. The other interesting fact he said was that the new perfect is selling 4 times what they anticipated and they had to increase their production.
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enigma309		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 423 01/14/2009 06:39 Reclusive! Like J D Salinger	orange caddis wrote: The other interesting fact he said was that the new perfect is selling 4 times what they anticipated and they had to increase their production. Hardy may have got it right once again! Despite the xenophobia they have been masters of marketing and spin for well over 100 years now Angling Accessories
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8xtippet		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 24 01/14/2009 10:37	Any speculation what effect the reissue of St. George reels would have on the price of earlier iterations? I bought a NIB 3" LHW in a red box last year, paid more money than anyone has a right to. It is numbered, I guess that would raise the value. But I was ecstatic to win the auction, thinking they wouldn't ever be available again. Funny how things work out. dave
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Akroyd		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 31 01/14/2009 10:39	In my experience in working with China and Korea as an engineer, I have had both good and bad experiences. I will give you a few examples. A few years ago we had an injection molded part that was fairly large, and the US mold maker wanted $400,000 for the tool. We contacted a toolmaker in Korea who was reputable, and they gave us a price of $65,000 not including freight. They made the mold, and when it arrived in the US, we had to spend another $90,000 cleaning up their bad machining. It still saved us money, but we lost a lot of time. Raw materials in these countries can be a problem too. We had consistent problems with any steel parts that came from China. The steel was supposed to be ASTM A500 Grade B, but when we tested it the material properties were some of the least uniform we had ever seen. We had consistent failures from the parts, and moved completely away from any imported steel parts from China. We had a Korean tire manufactuer, and the first 5 or 6 shipments we recieved were of excellent quality, even more dimensionally accurate than the US manufacturers we used. However, after abot a year, we recieved one shipment containing about 4 million dollars worth of tires that were completely rotten. The tire manufacturer claims it was shipping damage, and told us we had to sue the shipping company. It's been my experience that the Asian manufacturers can make exact copies of practically anything, but their ability to produce original designs and design processes is horrible. They have major issues with material supply (look at their food industry and all the 'fillers' businesses are using, and imagine what their steel is like) and I just hope the Hardy is aware of what they are getting into. I believe the Koreans can machine a good reel, but what about the rest of the process? That bothers me more than the fit, my guess is that will always be good. There has been a lot of debate about how to identify a Korean vs. English made reel, but if it does not have Made in England stamped in it somewhere, I simply assume it's Korean, regardless of what the seller claims. I know that some of the Korean parts were shipped to Hardy in England and assembled there, these fly reels have no Made in England stamp, but they still carry the inflated Hardy prices, and sellers claim they were made in England, when they were actually assembled in England and manufactured in Korea. Either way, I like the new prices, I just don't believe they will have the collector value without the Made in England.
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reelhimin		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 409 01/14/2009 11:41	Rabbi & orange caddis, I must have spoken to the same Hardy rep you did at the Denver show. He gave me the same spiel about the parts being made in Korea because "they have the best aluminum in the world" etc., etc. When I started to pin him down on a few points he made he suddenly saw another guy he "just had to talk to". My opinion is to buy a vintage Hardy and be assured of lasting value. Gary
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bulldog1935		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6634 01/14/2009 11:58 Bulldog1935	there are alerts in all industries of Chinese steel products with properties below specification requirements - a real problem in pressure vessels. It's nothing to see Chinese fasteners that do not match any thread dimension standards. of course, there is no such thing as "best aluminum in the world"; however, there is something to be said for having all new tooling made to the latest ISO quality standards. the rods are never obsolete - the marketing is.
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orange caddis		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 200 01/14/2009 15:41	Akroyd wrote: In my experience in working with China and Korea as an engineer, I have had both good and bad experiences. I will give you a few examples. A few years ago we had an injection molded part that was fairly large, and the US mold maker wanted $400,000 for the tool. We contacted a toolmaker in Korea who was reputable, and they gave us a price of $65,000 not including freight. They made the mold, and when it arrived in the US, we had to spend another $90,000 cleaning up their bad machining. It still saved us money, but we lost a lot of time. Raw materials in these countries can be a problem too. We had consistent problems with any steel parts that came from China. The steel was supposed to be ASTM A500 Grade B, but when we tested it the material properties were some of the least uniform we had ever seen. We had consistent failures from the parts, and moved completely away from any imported steel parts from China. We had a Korean tire manufactuer, and the first 5 or 6 shipments we recieved were of excellent quality, even more dimensionally accurate than the US manufacturers we used. However, after abot a year, we recieved one shipment containing about 4 million dollars worth of tires that were completely rotten. The tire manufacturer claims it was shipping damage, and told us we had to sue the shipping company. It's been my experience that the Asian manufacturers can make exact copies of practically anything, but their ability to produce original designs and design processes is horrible. They have major issues with material supply (look at their food industry and all the 'fillers' businesses are using, and imagine what their steel is like) and I just hope the Hardy is aware of what they are getting into. I believe the Koreans can machine a good reel, but what about the rest of the process? That bothers me more than the fit, my guess is that will always be good. There has been a lot of debate about how to identify a Korean vs. English made reel, but if it does not have Made in England stamped in it somewhere, I simply assume it's Korean, regardless of what the seller claims. I know that some of the Korean parts were shipped to Hardy in England and assembled there, these fly reels have no Made in England stamp, but they still carry the inflated Hardy prices, and sellers claim they were made in England, when they were actually assembled in England and manufactured in Korea. Either way, I like the new prices, I just don't believe they will have the collector value without the Made in England. the question i have is how can ross reels manufacture high quality reels at reasonable prices in the united states and hardy could not in their homeland?
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Akroyd		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 32 01/14/2009 16:28	I think there are a few things to consider. Europe has a shorter work week in terms of hours than in the US, so even if both plants (or shops) are the same efficiency, you get less product out per week in Europe. I believe the cost of manufacturing is higher in Europe than here due to higher prices for raw material. I also believe they were likely paying higher wages than Ross does, although that would depend on whether or not Ross is unionized. The other thing about Ross is that it is heavily computerized. Reels are machined without any operator supervision, someone posted a video about a machining center Ross was using, those things are one and done push button machines. My guess is that Hardy saw some of the same modernization, but not to the extent that Ross has adopted it. Hardy may even have some legacy issues like our automakers currently have in the US. Eventually it becomes cheaper to close the facility and move it overseas. Look at the price drops, they appear to be about 60% or so on some products for Hardy, if they are selling it to you for $300, even after shipping it half way around the world (possibly twice) it's likely they are building it for well under $100. British made reels were likely produced for around $400-$500. There is about $8.50 worth of aluminum on a Cascapedia (by volume). There are some other parts, surface plating, etc, but in bulk, all that stuff adds up to cheap. Move it to Korea, where machine operators may make $1-$2 an hour, and imagine your savings. It's likely that Ross reels would be under $100 if moved to an Asian production facility, but remember, that cost savings always evaporates. A number of companies have stopped shipping plants to Asia, opting for Mexico as an alternative to avoiding issues with Customs and shipping delays, which typically eat as much as half of your savings in Asia. As the Asian countries economies grow and modernize, there wages will also begin to catch up, and Asia will not be nearly as viable. I am blathering now, I can be long winded so sorry if this is a bit much
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jbarnick		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 29 01/14/2009 18:36	I think the whole England vs. Korea argument's outcome will rely heavily on your use of the reel. Is it going to be collected or strictly fished? I think in terms of shear functionality they will be on par if not better than the England made ones. We aren't truly stressing the materials to their max, so the metallurgical quality control won't be TOO big of a factor. I would imagine the outfit in Korea doing them operates machinery closer to what Ross runs, making the whole process from start to finish much more controlled and easier to hold tighter tolerances. My only problem is what it looses. I like the old English fly reels for their character. When I fondle my Dingley made perfect, I know that roughly 70-80 years ago, a dedicated craftsman that cared about his work personally fit and finished this reel. They have soul and I think that it is the largest draw (for me at least) to the older Hardy reels. They weren't mass produced cookie cutter reels and it helps add to their desire. My view is that they will fish the same but their "collectability" will go down the toilet (save for maybe a desirable limited edition run). The same thing happened with the Orvis CFO's. The Korean made reels fish great and some even argue are better made, but the Hardy made ones hold their resale value exponentially better.
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orange caddis		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 201 01/14/2009 19:50	jbarnick wrote: I think the whole England vs. Korea argument's outcome will rely heavily on your use of the reel. Is it going to be collected or strictly fished? I think in terms of shear functionality they will be on par if not better than the England made ones. We aren't truly stressing the materials to their max, so the metallurgical quality control won't be TOO big of a factor. I would imagine the outfit in Korea doing them operates machinery closer to what Ross runs, making the whole process from start to finish much more controlled and easier to hold tighter tolerances. My only problem is what it looses. I like the old English fly reels for their character. When I fondle my Dingley made perfect, I know that roughly 70-80 years ago, a dedicated craftsman that cared about his work personally fit and finished this reel. They have soul and I think that it is the largest draw (for me at least) to the older Hardy reels. They weren't mass produced cookie cutter reels and it helps add to their desire. My view is that they will fish the same but their "collectability" will go down the toilet (save for maybe a desirable limited edition run). The same thing happened with the Orvis CFO's. The Korean made reels fish great and some even argue are better made, but the Hardy made ones hold their resale value exponentially better. that sounds right to me, i wonder if they considered moving the production to the united states? does anyone have a hardy reel from korea and if so how does it compare?
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burk48237		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 29 01/14/2009 20:30	I guess it depends on if you want a reel with Soul or one made in Seoul. I may make the leap for one of the new Perfects, the fact that it is machined instead of cast appeals to me. But as far as the new Korean stuff, personally I'd rather buy used British. You can still find Lightweights and Marquis in great shape for the mid 200$. And their are still some deals to be had. I recently bought a Flyweight, Featherweight, Princess, and St. John (early single screws), in the boxes, never lined with all paperwork for a grand total of 400$. Cortland Rep MW
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