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Boonut |
#41 | |||
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The community will never agree on this. For some, older is better. For me...crisp and bamboo don't mix well.
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David Dornblaser |
#42 | |||
bobbeegee wrote: I am not, I never referred to length at all except in my reply to you. - David creakycane, I had a short Paradigm for a few years. I believe that the Paradigm series was designed to be close to cane in feel. - David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead.
Last Edited By: David Dornblaser 01/17/2009 10:53.
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David Dornblaser |
#43 | |||
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My 8' 4 wt Paradigm helped move me into cane.
I am not sure whether any rod makers are trying to make cane rods like graphite rods. I think that some of today's makers are slowly evolving their craft, and the uniqueness of their offerings, with different techniques, tapers, tweaks, etc. There is a long traditional of hollow building. I suspect that those of us have started our quivers in the last 5 years or so, are more likely to pick up the phone and talk to a current, modern maker (who is also hollow building). Viva la difference. - David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead. |
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Soft Hackle |
#44 | |||
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Seattle,
I have owned a 8' Spittler HB quad, very nice rod. That said, it was no nicer in action than my 8' solid built Granger, FET or Heddon. I simply could not see the advantage to it being HB but apparently others do recognize the difference and feel it to be worth additional expense. I would never consider masters such as Aroner, Carpenter, Bradford, Taylor, Dorsey,Schroeder, Clark, Simroe and many others production type houses and I am confident they are more familiar with the characteristics of solid and hollow than most of us. These are some of the most acclaimed contemporary makers and all build solid rods. Either they had no desire to build " cutting edge" high tech rods or saw no discernible advantage to HB construction, perhaps disadvantages? For those who clearly feel a difference that is preferable then HB is for them. I fish a Bacon Payne 97 a lot and would not want to change a thing about it. If it was an 8'6" rod I would be interested in trying a HB version probably.
Last Edited By: Soft Hackle 01/17/2009 12:48.
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creakycane |
#45 | |||
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If a fisherman started, evolved and matured using graphite, it does not surpise me that they would gravitate toward hollowbuilt rods if they now wanted cane
rods over 8'. Hence the increased interest today.
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seattlesetters |
#46 | |||
Soft Hackle wrote:Totally agree, Soft hackle. I was speaking about the Old Masters when I was referring to "production houses," not any of today's makers. In fact, there aren't many (if any) bamboo rod production houses currently in operation that I'm aware of. The curious thing about your list of fine makers is other than Clark, not one of them is located west of the Mississippi River, and many have direct connections to the houses of the Old Masters. Also, if I were in the market for a 7'6" 5wt, nearly everyone you name would make my short list if I were looking for an heirloom-quality rod. However, if I needed an 8'6" 5wt, there's a very good chance none of them would. Perhaps these makers don't build hollow rods due to their location and the traditions of the areas (and former builders working in the same areas) they live and work in? Many Western builders seem very willing to use hollow-building techniques, but not so many Eastern builders. My Spittler is still a ways off, but I'm looking forward to it as much as any rod. Ironically, I chose Dana Gray to make me a quad, as well, and all his rods are solid. I suppose who the maker is has more to do with how the rods cast and fish than whether they are solid or hollow. Note: I could be wrong, but I believe Don Schroeder is starting to experiment with hollow-building. |
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Soft Hackle |
#47 | |||
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SS,
I think your reasoning on Eastern makers Vs. Western is valid and something that did not really occur to me. If I was looking for an 8'6" 5wt. I would want to try out a hollow rod. Most of my rods are 7', 7'3" or 7'6" at this point with only my 8' Heddon as a " long rod". You will love the Spittler, wish I had mine still but I needed money at the time and it was easy to move. |
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David Dornblaser |
#48 | |||
seattlesetters wrote: Sweetgrass Rods. Maybe Winston. - David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead. |
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David Dornblaser |
#49 | |||
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Don had a hollow-built, 8'6" 5 wt quad at the Chicago show last year. I spent a few minutes casting it. A very quick impression was that it is a nice
rod. This year I think that I will spend more time examining his offerings.
- David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead. |
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matsoberg |
#50 | |||
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I read this thread a couple of times and felt that several posts had a way to refer to hollowbuilding as something "new" in rodmaking. I don´t know
about that. Lew and E.C. (and even Eustis Edwards) hollowed out their rods 75 years ago. I also found comments about hollowing bamboo rods to make them feel
like graphite?....
In any case, I feel, that the evolution aleady showed me it´s a good thing and made the bamboo grow hollow. Thank you. |
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tiptop |
#51 | |||
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Historically, hollow building may have been primarily a western thing, but I can think of a few eastern builders today who hollowbuild: T. Nigro, W. Taylor,
J. Drake and W. Carter come to mind but I'll bet there are others.
Last Edited By: tiptop 01/18/2009 09:23.
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Gnome |
#52 | |||
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Hollow building goes back to the late 1800's this is a hard and fast fact. And if you doubt it come to the cave and I will show you the rods I mention
below.
I have Chubbs that are hollow. One in particular is a 12' that weighs 7 ounces. Murphy and Leonard and Edwards and Malleson and Conroy and Bisset etc all built rods that where hollow through at least 2/3rds of the blank. The epitomy of hollow building today is Done by Wayne Maca at Beaverhead rods. He has advanced the art of hollow building farther than anybody else and deserves many Kudo's for that. 2 cents from the cave. Jeff |
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levertonhatches |
#53 | |||
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Hardy was building "Holokona" rods at least 50 years ago (don't have my old catalogues in front of me at the moment), many of which were 9 feet
and longer; Socttish builder David Norwich built me a hollow 7'9" 2pc some 30 years ago. What a lovely casting rod that is. When I pick it up I do not
have a feeling of "Wow this must be hollow." And the recommended line size is 5 -- I don't now that hollow building the rod resulted in lowering
the line size required to work the rod. I do enjoy owning a hollow-built rod -- it's a distinctive item in my "collection." And if the pith of
the cane doesn't contribute to the rod's utility, why not take the non-contributing material out? That appeals somehow to my non-engineer brain. The
trout don't seem to care one way or the other.
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Boonut |
#54 | |||
levertonhatches wrote:I think the question is, if the pith doesn't contribute anything positive or negative. Why spend the time and money to remove it? Especially, on shorter rods. |
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bobbeegee |
#55 | |||
levertonhatches wrote: Go Heels!!! |
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16 pmd |
#56 | |||
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I think the original question here is really the wrong one. You may not be able to identify a rod as hollow when you pick it up and wiggle it by itself because
there are so many variables in rod construction, taper, fittings, etc. The true test and right question is the difference between two rods that are identical
except for the hollowing. Then you can evaluate the effect of hollowing alone. Any comparisons using Howells and Winston, fine rods that they are, are also not
especially helpful because those rods are hollow in the BUTT ONLY. That reduces weight, but has far less effect on action and damping than hollowing in the
upper section(s). The lighter the line rod, the greater the change in action by hollowing for a given length. There will definitely be a noticeable difference
in a 7 1/2' 3 wt. and it will be even more pronounced than in a 7 1/2' 5 wt. Removing a given amount of weight has an obviously greater effect the
closer to the tip it is. Reducing the weight of a ferrule (especially the upper one on a 3 pc. rod), using lighter snakes and even reducing the weight of the
tip top by using two parallel "feet" straddling the rod rather than a full tube will also have a similar effect. Rods that are both hollowbuilt into
the upper section(s) and use some of these other weight-reducing techniques mean, as has benn well said above, that the rod has less of its own weight to
recover and more energy to put into the line.
The proposition that "the fish can't tell" I take to be a joke because the FISH can't tell much of anything - whether the rod is hollow or solid, whether the angler knows anything about hatches, whether the angler is a competent caster - but all those things probably will have an effect on whether and how consistently the angler can deliver the right fly to the fish. To have never cast a hollow rod and make that kind of statement seems to me premature conjecture at best. Having cast hundreds of hollow rods, I am convinced that hollowing has a significant effect in improving action. There are plenty of outstanding solid rods and a lousy taper on a hollow rod won't be made good by hollowing, but the combination of a good taper and hollowbuilding, in my opinion, makes for a superior rod. There are plenty of well-fished E.C. Powells around that are 50+ years old (he died in 1967), so worries about durability may be misplaced depending on how a rod is constructed and hollowed. The makers I've talked to who build rods hollow into the tip - Reams, Brandin, Wojnicki, Karstetter, Peterson, etc. - are not in any way trying to duplicate graphite. They aren't stupid enough to think they can somehow "out-graphite" graphite, a material that has 6-10 times the bending strength of bamboo. They are just trying to make a better bamboo rod, and, in my opinion, have succeeded. |
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Boonut |
#57 | |||
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pmd,
You did everything but explain how a HB rod is made better than a solid one? If I cast one. What would I feel different? |
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oneculm |
#58 | |||
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First I have to admit I have never cast or seen a hollowbuilt rod that I am aware of. It is not a question of right or wrong with the question as it was very
basic. It asked if you picked up a rod and cast it would you know it was hollow built? Keeping it simple and to the point the answer is no.The same as if asked
what are the angles of the bamboo in a particular rod cut at; 59/60/63 ? There is just no way to know. The question did not ask how they were made or who made
them or when they were first made or why they are made and on and on.Most advocates of hollowbuilding say if you put two rods of the same taper together and
one is hollowbuilt you will know the difference.I have never been given the opportunity to do this, so I do not know. It would stand to reason that if you have
changed how a rod feels(crisp as some have said)then you have obviously changed how the original taper feels.I think what Bob was trying to say that instead of
paying more to have a different feel why not just have a taper built to accomplish the same thing? Many will agree that Payne rods are about as good as it
gets.By looking at a list of what Payne tapers there are, maybe his answer to the different "feel" was to offer different tapers in the same length
rod..Never having had a hollowbuilt in my hand(that I know of) I would not even want to get into the weight thing.Someone posted 3/10 oz . Well if that is an
average savings for an 8' or under rod just don't wear a watch or ring on that hand and you will have a much larger savings in hand. I guess for me
being cheap to start with(my rod collection is one ) I see no reason to pay extra for a "feel" when a change of taper can do the same thing,but again
that is just my opinion. dave
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matsoberg |
#59 | |||
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Boonut.
As you obviously won´t get the anwser you want here, I´d suggest you try a hollowbuilt rod for yourself. Reading peoples (subjective) opinions on internet is a poor solution to get your own. |
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Serendipity |
#60 | |||
But the simple fact is the more weight that is removed from a rod the transfer of energy will be better. Meaning instead of the rod casting its self it will be casting the line.If the existence of pith contributes nothing to rod performance, how does its removal improve performance? Powell's answer, with which Thramer concurs, is that reduced weight improves the transfer of energy. In short, it has more to do with physics than with the actual presence or absence of the material being removed. I think this explanation does move cane rod construction in the direction of graphite, and I don't mean that as a criticism of any kind. Why shouldn't bamboo rod makers take advantage of any design changes that they believe improve casting performance? It's not that graphite is being copied, but that useful information from graphite rod development is being incorporated into cane rod construction. There's no sin in that. It may be that some of the old masters who did not build hollow rods in their day, would have if they were alive today and surrounded by graphite rod technology. OTOH, some might still feel that the benefits do not justify the added construction time and cost to the buyer. I think many of the contributors to this thread come down in exactly that place. If you can't feel the difference, there's no point in paying more for a hollow built rod. If you can, you have to decide if the difference is significant enough to justify paying for the extra work. richard |
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