Removing useless weight improves action - what's so hard to understand about that? The center pith is useless because, being closer to the center of the
rod, it is neither stretching as the fibers on the outside of the bend in the rod, nor compressing as the fibers on the inside of the bend, so not contributing
much to the reistance of the rod to bending. Also, the pith as a material doesn't have much bending strength to begin with. Getting rid of useless weight
in a rod is like reducing useless weight in a car - it accelerates better and corners better. Maybe you just want the smooth ride and not the performance, but
the performance does suffer with additional useless weight. Every part of a rod has to recover or propel all the rod above it. The less dead, useless weight it
has to recover, the more energy goes instead into the line. That makes the rod livlier and quicker. Saying you can change the taper to achieve the same thing
is only true up to a point. One thing hollowing does is allow a maker to extend the length a rod can be made without becoming mushy or heavy. While a 7
1/2' 4 wt can have almost any action, making it longer tends to steadily narrow the range of available actions toward the slower end of the spectrum. With
hollowbuilding a 4 wt. can be made at 8' or longer that can have the same crisp action that a solid 7 1/2' rod would have. The same can't be said
for solid rods because they have to recover that additional useless weight. Hollowing isn't primarily about reducing the static, dead weight of the rod in
your hand, it's about removing weight where it has the most effect on the action of the rod - in the upper sections - to improve action. If you haven't
actually tried some hollowbuilt rods, speculating about why you think they do or don't make much of a difference is a pretty empty exercise.
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Hollowbuilt versus solid built rods
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 16 pmd |
#61 | |||
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Posts: 632 01/19/2009 16:35 |
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Boonut |
#62 | |||
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Posts: 414 01/19/2009 16:42 |
16 pmd wrote:Don't mean to sound like an argument. Just trying to understand. How come some who have cast HB rods say they can't tell the difference? Has anybody weighed the pith taken from say mid section to tip? |
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AJ Bamboo |
#63 | |||
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Posts: 773 01/19/2009 19:41 |
wow! something really lit the fuse on this topic. part of the problem is that some questions are asked with the intent of receiving a concrete answer when it
is simply not possible to do given the open way the questions are asked.
think about a few parameters- 1) how is the rod hollowed? answer, i don't know unless i built it. some methods of hollowing achieve good results, some minor results and some are simply a waste of time. there are as many ways to hollow a rod as there are builders and we don't share the info much as it takes a couple of years of experimentation to work out the finer points. 2) is it hollow or not? answer, if it is unmarked i don't have any idea because i would not know the answer to #1. i CAN tell if it done with one of the 'high yield' methods and i can certainly tell if it is one of mine. 3) does it hurt the base character of a rod? answer, no but the hollowing should be adapted to the each rod. a taper that is purpose built for hollowing should yield superior results. but back to Q#1. 4) are we trying to mimic graphite? answer, no, i do not know of any builder that is conciously trying to do that. a graphite like feel is derived from the taper not hollowing. if you were trying to make a graphite like cane rod then hollowing would certainly be of help though. 5) is it worth it on short rods? answer, absolutely, keeping in mind Q#1 again. the results, at least as i do it, yield a rod that has more subtlety than a solid rod. less mass must be accelerated and decelerated. the resulting rod is more sensitive, has increased casting performace both long(which i expected) and short(which was a surprise). 6) why should i buy/build a hollow rod? answer, because you want the increased performance. with all that, a solid rod is still the standard against which we measure. a poorly made hollow is still a poorly made rod though, and is inferior to a well made solid rod. there is no magic in the generic technique of hollowbuilding. 7) why bother with the seemingly small amount of mass that is saved? answer, location, location. 1/3 oz out of a lever that is rapidly acc/decelerated can make a very large difference, the further out from the fulcrum point the mass is removed the larger the result. would you rather be hit by a car going 2mph or 50mph? bout all the time i have for now, hope this is of some assistance aj |
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Flyman615 |
#64 | |||
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Posts: 3040 01/19/2009 20:04 |
OK, I'll stipulate my comments are purely subjective and based only on personal experience.
I really like hollow-built rods. In fact, after fishing cane for 37 years, I prefer them. I like the way they feel in my hand. I also seem to prefer their action, generally speaking, to solid built rods of similar length and taper. I believe in the design theory of hollow-building cane rods, and in the lineage decending from Powell and Winston, among others. If I had my "druthers", I'd like all my favorite rods, both two and three-piece--old and new, to be hollow-built. But that's just me. Regards, Flyman 
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E C Powell |
#65 | |||
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Posts: 24 01/20/2009 01:03 |
Wow this is a fun thread. Any how E.C. came up with the semi-hollow for the big western rods and tournament rod for distance casting. In tournaments the
rods could weight only so much. This led to a wall with solid built rods so E.C. came up with a way to produce a more powerful rod that met the same guide
lines. So did Winston (not as good in my opinion).
It comes down to if you like the way a rod fishes and cast it's the one for you. The fish don't care. Good fishing. Eugene C Powell |
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Eric Peper |
#66 | |||
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Posts: 103 01/20/2009 11:51 |
AJ Bamboo wrote:I'll testify to the last part of that sentence. The 8' HB you just sent to me is crisply accurate with only 10-12' of line plus a 9' leader off the tip, and with a couple of false casts, it'll turn over 50' of line in a straight shot. EP |
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Boonut |
#67 | |||
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Posts: 415 01/20/2009 12:36 |
Eric Peper wrote:As will a 7' 4wt Garrison 201e solid built. |
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 creakycane |
#68 | |||
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Posts: 2025 01/20/2009 12:54 |
E C Powell wrote: Thanks EC. I always wondered about this..... I would offer that if radically hollowed rods last a short time, hollowed rods might (else being equal) not last as long as solid rods (perhaps, especially in tips if hollowed?). Makes one think twice about spending over 4k for a long hollow 4wt, ehh? |
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AJ Bamboo |
#69 | |||
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Posts: 775 01/20/2009 14:53 |
see a fair number of EC's hollow rods around here and a couple of things stand out. they are almost always very well used. the kind of honest hard use a
great fishing rod receives. the rod is structurally sound under all the wear, though the ferrules are a problem at times
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creakycane |
#70 | |||
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Posts: 2026 01/20/2009 15:02 |
Thanks AJ - and Thanks also for the Q/A summary before...very helpful to get the opinion and experience of someone who has actually built so many rods!
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mattcliff |
Durability of hollow built rods | #71 | ||
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Posts: 32 01/20/2009 21:21 |
Most hollow-built rods aren't simply a hollowed-out tube. To ensure adequate glue surfaces, they either have short "dams" of solid cane spaced
along the length of the rod, or else are "fluted" (i.e., have a a u-shaped groove down the length of the splines) so that the glue lines are
preserved. Add that to modern epoxies, and you get a pretty durable rod.
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wb4tjh |
#72 | |||
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Posts: 460 01/22/2009 11:06 |
I would think that to really document the differences, you would have to have two identical rods: one hollowbuilt and the other solid. They would have to be
from the same culm, same taper, same amount of thread and varnish, and basically mirror images of each other except for the hollow build of one. Then, and only
then, could you accurately measure and verify the actual differences, not just in the rod weight, but in actions, speed of recovery, and other parameters.
Until some does that, I think all the opinions are just that, opinions. Yes, common sense tells me that a hollowbuilt rod will have a faster recovery because
it has less mass, but I would like to see some documented, scientific measurements made that could be substantiated. I'm not being skeptical, since common
sense tells you the hollow rod will have a quicker action, but it would be interesting to see some actual measurements.
Bill Anderson, Sarsota, Fl. "Bamboo is the Benchmark in flyrods". |
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AJ Bamboo |
#73 | |||
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Posts: 776 01/22/2009 11:24 |
did that WB when i was testing different methods prior to offering the hollow rods for sale. how you could design effective hollow tapers without testing them
is beyond me. simple scientific method: formulate an idea, design a method of testing the idea, testing the idea and quantifying the results so the data can be
used to continue development. i may not get multi-thousands for my hollow rods but that does not mean that they were haphazardly or carelessly designed
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wb4tjh |
#74 | |||
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Posts: 461 01/22/2009 12:48 |
AJ, I certainly would not be one to suggest that you would do something haphazardly. You've earned your reputation through hard work and consistantly fine
products. I know that obviously, you and other professional builders conduct a LOT of tests before you offer something new for sale. Just how much quicker in
recovery do you find the hollowbuilt rods in comparison to the solid ones? Did you have to alter the basic outside dimensions of the tapers to compensate? I
have a rod I built up from a hollowbuilt blank I got last year from Dennis Stone, a Dickerson 8014. I can't compare it with a solid rod, since I don't
have a similar rod, but I do find the hollowbuilt one I have to have a quick tip recovery after a cast and it's a formidable casting and fishing
instrument. I think the quality of your rods and that of other builders today, shows conclusively that we are living today in the truly golden age of bamboo
fly rods. Bill Anderson
Bill Anderson, Sarsota, Fl. "Bamboo is the Benchmark in flyrods". |
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MountainsAllAround |
#75 | |||
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Posts: 342 01/23/2009 22:03 |
I actually have cast identical Chris Raine tapers - one hollowed, one solid - and yes, there was a significant difference between the two.
I own an early Raine 8' 5wt Upper Sac Special (solid), and fished Dave Roberts' hollowbuilt Upper Sac Special, and while my solid built is a wonderful rod, the hollowbuilt 8' 5wt was livelier and a hair smoother. Keep in mind Raine hollowbuilds pretty aggressively, so you probably wouldn't notice much difference if the builder is just hollow-building the butt section, or only knocking a little pith off the apex of the strip. As for durability, Roberts has landed Rogue steelhead on his Upper Sac Special and I've done some frankly horrible things to my hollowbuilts, so I'd suggest that a moot point. As AJ Thramer has pointed out, the term "hollowbuilding" covers a lot of ground; having watched Raine and Reams endlessly experimenting with different hollowing techniques, I can see how complex the issue is. 
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creakycane |
#76 | |||
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Posts: 2033 01/24/2009 16:30 |
I'm not sure that is the most relevant comparison -I would think that when a maker offers, for example, as 8' 3pc 5 wt in both hollow and solid
versions, that the oustside taper of the rod is NOT necessarily the same in both cases.....
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David Dornblaser |
#77 | |||
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Posts: 258 01/24/2009 16:44 |
creakycane wrote: Is that true? Why would the outside dimensions differ if a rod is solid or hollow-built? How could they be the same taper if the dimensions are different? Just out of curiosity, have you cast any hollow-built rods? - David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead.
Last Edited By: David Dornblaser 01/24/2009 17:13.
Edited 2 times.
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MountainsAllAround |
#78 | |||
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Posts: 345 01/24/2009 22:37 |
In the context of this discussion, I think comparing two "identical" rods (save the hollowing) is the perfect way to illustrate the effect of
hollowing, though your mileage may vary based on the sophistication of the methods used to hollow a rod.
And without giving away a lot (partly because I don't understand it, I just watch him do it), but I've watched Raine muck around with the internal taper more than the outside taper, which delivers some very interesting results.
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oysterbamboo |
#79 | |||
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Posts: 274 01/24/2009 22:53 |
David Dornblaser wrote: I think the confusion lies when some people are referring to specific number tapers and others refer to specific rating tapers. In other words, when I "vigorously" hollow build all of the way into the tip, my 8' 3piece 5wt. become a very nice 8' 3 piece 4wt. If I wanted to keep it a 5, I would have to increase the outside diameter. It would still end up to be lighter than the solid 5 of course, but it would have a larger outside diameter. Did that make sense at all? Bill O. |
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creakycane |
#80 | |||
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Posts: 2034 01/24/2009 23:38 |
oysterbamboo wrote: Bill - My point exactly and it made perfect sense. David - Yes, owned/own/cast and fished many of them. Have you? Do you understand that the internal taper changes the rod physics? And if you hollow that 5 wt solid rod, it ain't generally a 5 anymore? |
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As a side note some
of the tournament rods had so much removed they would only last a short time.
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