With the proliferation of people building bamboo nowadays, will there be a point where large numbers of rods will go unsold and prices will go down? I have
quite a few rods now and I find that I'm much less likely to pick up a new one. And if ebay is any measure, I see a flood of rod offers from China as well
as from unknown (to me) builders. In addition, in Clark's classifieds I see a lot of rods going either unsold or at very low prices. I don't see the
"elite" builders hurting for orders but I wonder if everyone else will be affected. Some of this is undoubtedly due to the economy, but I wonder if
there are sufficient numbers of bamboo buyers to support all the builders.
This forum began as Clark's Classic Bamboo Rod Forum, founded by Clark Davis for all who share a passion for classic rods. The forum is now owned by Whitefish Press aka Dr. Todd Larson - banjo.
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Is the bamboo rod market reaching saturation?
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 tiptop |
Is the bamboo rod market reaching saturation? |
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Posts: 477 01/30/2009 12:41 |
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greendrake ll |
#1 | |||
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Posts: 1042 01/30/2009 13:25 |
While it is getting a mite cluttered with the proliferation of makers,I feel the biggest factor at this time is the economy.
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 ibookje |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 1446 01/30/2009 13:28 |
No doubt
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seattlesetters |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 555 01/30/2009 13:36 |
In all honesty, I'm actually purchasing more rods now than ever. However, I have a feeling when this particular buying frenzy subsides, I may end up like
Tom and be more content to fish what I have rather than always looking for another rod.
I can't tell you for certain if the market is saturated, but I can say my quiver will be once my current orders are filled. One thing I do see that perhaps bodes well for makers is the price of top-end plastic rods approaching $800. While neophytes and casting addicts may not consider cane, seasoned fly fishers may actually look to bamboo once they see the price differences aren't all that great. I know that lured me from the dark side, and I don't see graphite prices falling with each new model release. |
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creakycane |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 2046 01/30/2009 14:17 |
I've noticed all but the most rare or in-demand rods going for low/moderate prices compared to a few years ago. It seems the few recent rods I've seen
from a few name-brand companies and individual makers, who make very nice rods, going for 60-70% of retail;. this is less than a few years ago, IMO.
Even a recently launched startup that is brought up on this board all the time - I am now seeing their rods for sale all over the place, often at less than retail.... It seemed it was only a few years ago that people were eager to buy ANY of their output, based on the makers' reps... Maybe they are too efficient (ie, the perception that the rods are easy to get, and don't hold value)......perhaps its just the tight economy, and people figure they can always buy one of those rods? On the proliferation of makers: There are so many very good makers producing rods now, it hard to see where all the rods will go. Once the people on this board saturate their closets, and their like minded acquanitainces do the same, it is hard to imagine there being that many folks out there willing to fork over1k plus each for a stack of rods. And, being that there are so many makers who learned from this fellow who learned from that fellow - and they all are still making rods - its hard to see there being enough consumers in a dry economy. Maybe the "The River Why" or somesuch willl "stimulate" things. I have talked to one "elite" builder who reported more cancellations in orders in the last few months than he anticipated.........but just one data point. |
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voodooboo |
saturation? | #5 | ||
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Posts: 19 01/30/2009 15:41 |
Actually with alot of makers demand far exceeds supply.That is why alot of makers have a waiting list.That is a sure way to stay in business during the hard
times..I am not at the point where I feel I am content with my bamboo collection...I actually just got into bamboo a couple years ago..I am content however to
fish with the rods I have until I have the expendable money I need to spend on things I don't have to have..My money (early this season at least) will be
spent on things I actually need for fishing like wading boots,Waders etc. rather than rods that I can get by without.I believe it is a matter of expendable
capital rather than saturation.Waiting lists will not grow as fast as they have in the past,but they will still grow.
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Whitefish Press |
#6 | |||
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Posts: 208 01/30/2009 17:04 Sic transit piscatoria Clark's |
New makers arrive, old makers retire...the economy is up, the economy is down...the only fact concerning rodmaking that matters is that quality remains and
will always be in demand. A discerning angler will always want a good rod to fish with, and thus a good rodsmith will always be guaranteed a home for his/her
rods.
The bamboo lives on long after we are gone. -- Dr. Todd |
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cwood |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 493 01/30/2009 18:00 |
I tend to agree with Whitefish. I would say, however, that there seems to be a flux of makers right now relative to a decade or so ago. There also seems to
be more folks fishing cane rods, but whether there is enough fishermen to support all those makers will be determined soon enough with these tough economic
times. I may be wrong about this, but it seems like the availability of new machinery on the market today that increases the ease and rate at which a newby
can learn the craft has accelerated the number of makers hitting the market. A new maker that buys a 10-15k machine to make finished tapered strips and is good
at applying bells and whistles doesn't immediately make that person a qualified maker, at least at the price range some of them try to achieve. There are
plenty of makers out there right now that have made well under 100 rods total and are charging as much or more than makers who have made many more rods
with much more experience. Years of experience building rods and gadgets and earning a reputation the hard way is how it is done, and those are the
folks that will last. I don't know if any of this answers the original question, but my point is that a quality maker that produces a quality product,
offers quality service, and has paid their dues in order to get the prices they charge, will keep selling rods and the demand for those rods will remain. The
makers who pop on the scene with a pretty product but untested over time and overpriced will fall off the map.
CWood |
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tim simbari |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 302 01/30/2009 18:57 |
The unmolested classics are stable and there are not really more of the truly long term masters around today than 10-15 years ago, folks like Summers, Aroner,
Brandin, etc. If you're going to spend some decent coin [$1500+] on a rod you had better ask yourself whether it's likely going to be resold because
there are lots of folks that build quality, well crafted cane rods with limited, at best, resale at or above your cost. The old adage remains true, from a
collectability perspective, better to acquire a couple of good ones. If you just like rods, great, but come resale time it will not be easy unless you wait a
long time.
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JJZ |
#9 | |||
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Posts: 28 01/30/2009 20:10 |
My experience with cane is less than two years. Since than I've purchased 5 new cane rods, and don't for a second consider my purchases extravagant. Saturation, I've saturated myself into the cane world and more saturation is sure to follow. At the Somerset show last weekend, I picked-up 2 rods, I saw alot of people casting bamboo, bodes well for the the builders as graphite prices have climbed.... |
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NorthBranch |
#10 | |||
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Posts: 139 01/30/2009 21:08 |
I agree with some of the folks. I don't necessarily agree saturation is the issue, really this is just a crappy economy and a "will I have a job in
three month" issue, as I don't really think the person buying a $100 rod from China is the same person buying a rod from say Mike Clark, Bill Abrams,
Per Brandin, Walt Carpenter, or Bob Summers. When we are talking about people wondering how safe their job is a few months out, it's really only logical
that all areas of the bamboo world will be effected. To me, the market no doubt has had the biggest effect on early qaulity production rods or lower priced
rods from lesser established makers. These rods while fine casters and in some cases as nice as even some of the best customs, are just more available, so
people can hold off on these and buy next year or bargin now. I have recently seen some great condition and harder to come buy production rods go for 60% of
what they would have fetched just 6 months ago. This is really no different, nor should it expect to be different than the overall market.
The flip side if this is that if you are looking to get into cane for fishing or collecting, now is a great time to get a high qaulity rod for a price you couln't touch even a few months ago. This obviously assumes all is well on the job front. The only anomalies I see are old rare classics and rods from top modern makers which seem to be holding up fairly well and in the case of some of these actually increasing in value. However, in the case of the latter, it may be harder to tell unless these rods show up on the secondary market. The rare classics are just that...rare, so folks with available or unlimited funds (there are some left) will still pounce on them since in some cases they may not show up again for years or decades. The "untouchable" makers say for example the folks mentioned above or guys like Per Brandin, Bob Summers, etc. just make so few rods per year they don't need much to fill up years of backlog to the point of infinity. We have all seen some of these rods show up on the secondary market and unless you sometimes chance on being on a dealer site the second they are listed, the rod is usually gone. But I am sure even their backlogs have shrunk slighly or some depositors have dropped though no one here would admit it, but when you are talking a four year backlog from a six year, does it really matter? Just my two cents. CR |
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cwood |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 494 01/30/2009 23:50 |
It isn't just the "elite" makers mentioned in previous post that are still doing well. Makers like AJ (it's hard not to use him as an
example) who offer a great rod, equal to or better than many makers with twice the price tag, may shine in this economy. If you really want a new rod right
now but are pinching pennies, it just makes sense. AJ's rods still sell like hotcakes and re-sell for close to what they cost new. Sometimes I don't
know how other makers compete with him. Jennings is another example. I've seen a lot of makers with much less credentials raising their prices every year
because folks are willing to pay, or at least were willing to pay. AJ and Jennings (and I'm sure others) have maintained relatively the same prices and
just keep pumping out rods. Jennings doesn't produce nearly as many, but his prices are pretty darn good considering what others are charging. There is
still a market for the 2k rod makers, and many of them will do fine, but the folks in the middle who are charging too much and don't have the "fan
base" to keep them going may struggle in this economy. I think that is saturation in a way. Too many makers charging too much when there are other great
choices out there, especially if you plan to fish and keep the rod you purchase.
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RPL |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 101 01/31/2009 11:13 |
As long as we continue to fish, there will be a demand for rods. In these bad economic times, there will probably be renewed interest in rods with good value
such as the Thramer rods and others mentioned above, and bamboo will become more of a "buyers' market" (like real estate). In addition, fly
fishers might show renewed interest in the less expensive older rods that are true performers, such as rods noted in the thread here on "Sleepers."
Are we saturated? Difficult to say when it comes to bamboo, but, even with more than a dozen(s?) rods, many of us still seem to be on the lookout for more!
(Please have a look at the thread on rod collections or recent purchases.) Same applies to reels, but that's another matter altogether. So I would conclude
that the market is never completely saturated. We have plenty of capacity for further absorbtion, but we might be slowing down and collectively becoming more
picky. Yes, there are rods on the forum bulletin board, but there are also buyers out there for those rods at the right price. Will the lower prices preclude
many builders from making more rods? Probably. But absent a bailout program, we will have to suffer through a shake-out period of greater competition among
builders and lower prices -- with maybe significant innovation in some quarters. We'll emerge in better shape than ever. In the meantime, maybe this is a
time to pare down our collections a bit and take a little more time to fish the rods we have.
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pcg |
Is the market at saturation? | #13 | ||
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Posts: 2043 01/31/2009 11:24 Admin |
Impossible.
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cyangler |
Price Points | #14 | ||
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Posts: 13 01/31/2009 15:33 |
The internet has made it easier to sell vintage rods for sure. I remember back in the 80's prices that could make one choke. Before the resurgence,however,
people who had the rods often had no idea of what the market was or where to find it. Once the news filtered out, it hit, and it hit big. Now with the net,
people who don't even know how to cast but find dad's old fishin' pole or one at the flea, know right away that there is a market and what they can
expect to get. Those looking -- are a click away from finding the rod they want at the price they want to pay for it.
This has worked well for the new builders as well. And, as noted in the thread, the more experienced rod makers can't compete at the same price point, since they're not simply winding silk onto an automated pre-made blank. Graphite prices had just started to help move those who previously felt they couldn't spend "that much extra" for cane when now it is "only that much more," into fishing cane. But, how many of the $600-$800 graphite makers now have outsourced $200-$300 rods in their catalogs? So, we come full circle. And its still the Leonard and Mills / Edwards and Horton story. The best will survive. The mediocre may get a bigger market share but, the discerning who are willing to take the time to search out and find, and are willing to pay craftsman "almost" what they deserve, will still be able to find the gems. One may have to dig through a lot of dirt before finding the diamond.
Last Edited By: cyangler 02/01/2009 02:03.
Edited 3 times.
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bluno |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 150 02/01/2009 06:28 |
seattlesetters wrote: But you are only into bamboo rods for two or three years. Therefore, it is natural to buy more rods at the beginning.... |
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freestoner.fiberglassflyro... |
#16 | |||
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Posts: 30 02/01/2009 10:44 |
As long as there's an untapped market of fly fishers who presently fish only high-dollar carbon, who somehow keep finding themselves dissatisfied and
thinking that there's something missing from the rods they own and use, and who haven't yet realized that they could own one or more really nice
vintage light-line bamboo rods (with relatively modern actions, not merely stereotypically soft "noodle rods") at a price point strongly competitive
to high-end (or even mid-price) new graphite- and that they could get something new and exquisitely hand-crafted, for not much more, and less money than they
think- the bamboo rod market hasn't reached saturation.
As a matter of fact, if you fly fish for bass, it's conceivable that classic era 8 ft. to 9 1/2 ft. 6-7-8 weight bamboo rods and 3 1/2" to 3 3/4" 1950s-80s era spring and pawl reels are the biggest bargain in fishing tackle. If you can handle the weight, the higher grade classic-era production rods work as good as anything out there (or better, if you find a rod that suits you particularly well.)
Last Edited By: freestoner 02/02/2009 04:10.
Edited 8 times.
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jhcoffeebum |
Is the bamboo fly rod market at saturation? | #17 | ||
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Posts: 61 02/01/2009 16:27 |
I'm not sure if I know what you all mean? Saturation on an addiction, can that be done. The more I handle the old rods made by Leonard, Granger, Edwards,
Chubb, Heddon Company and many others, the more I desire. My wife walked into my study the other day and I looked at her with eyes glistening and I said in a
chocked voice "Honey I love.." she finished the sentence for me "I know you love me", I said hurriedly, "Yea and I love those old
bamboos in the corner too!" She knows I'm a little unhinged when it comes to rods so she still let me sleep in the house that night! Oil stains are
hard to get out of clothes when you sleep on the garage floor..
The "new era" boo makers out there like Mike Clark, Gary Lacey, R.W. Summers, Jeff Wagner... I could go on with a list that would encompass wonderful rod makers that as John Gierach says make a nice living at it and people that make a few a year. Every one of them are keeping this remarkable bamboo obsession we all have stronger every day! When you have a lot of these people with back orders into a couple years that says there will always be a strong desire to own more rods and also that there are people coming to the dark side every day. I just hope they don't out bid me on any auctions. Tight lines forever! |
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AJ Bamboo |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 784 02/02/2009 04:05 |
no
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fisheye444 |
ebb and flow | #19 | ||
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Posts: 98 02/02/2009 14:01 |
Of course there will always be the classic rods, but the classic rod makers unfortunately will come and go.
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ttrotter |
#20 | |||
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Posts: 842 02/02/2009 14:33 Moderator |
Lets see, the first year of the "Baby Boom Generation" will turn 63 this year. There are 15 years of Baby Boomers ( I just forget how many millions
there are) who are now in or approaching their peak earning years. Additionally, their parents are now passing on the largest chunk of wealth in US history.
They are the largest demographic of flyfishers and all saw THE MOVIE. IMHO, all of this bodes well for quality bamboo rod makers- at least for
the next 10-15 years IMHO. BTW, I firmly believe this economy will rebound eventually with OR without government intervention.
AJ said it best- "no". |
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