What exactly is a leaded finish and how was it applied? Is it possible/practical to re-do?
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Leaded finish on vintage reels -- what is it?
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 tiptop |
Leaded finish on vintage reels -- what is it? |
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Posts: 487 02/07/2009 18:27 |
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bulldog1935 |
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Posts: 6855 02/07/2009 20:27 Bulldog1935 |
The lead finish we're talking about on reels is arsenic bronzing.
It's a finish put on by dipping the part in a sulfuric acid/ arsenic-salt bath. when it comes out of the bath, it's black and sooty. After it's been rubbed quite a bit, you get the silky gray surface we see on aged reels. but remember, quite a bit of metal was corroded away in the bath to get there. The lead part is stove black - lead as the graphite in pencil lead for the final finish - rubbed on back off for many successive hand-polishing operations. No, it is not possible to re-do. Ask anyone here who has made the mistake of trying - generally in spite of reading everything that follows. It's an art, not a science, and you can't afford enough reels for trial-and-error to practice. You would have to remove the dissimilar metals, i.e., all the parts; activate the aluminum surface by corroding the piece in caustic solution, then get it rinsed and into the sulfuric acid solution before it reacts significantly with the air. It corrodes more in that solution and comes out looking like a lump of coal. After you get the finish on the aluminum, then you have to rebuild every part on the reel. I've had very good success using a good jeweler's aluminum sulfuric acid blackening solution to touch up scratches, and bare spots, but you do not want to try refinishing a complete reel.
the rods are never obsolete - the marketing is.
Last Edited By: bulldog1935 02/07/2009 20:30.
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tiptop |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 488 02/07/2009 20:43 |
Ron -- Thanks for the complete realistic answer. You answered my next question about the jewelers blackening agent for aluminum too. It sure seems like a
novel and labor intensive choice of surface treatment. Was it superior to other known alternatives at the time?
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bulldog1935 |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 6856 02/07/2009 21:07 Bulldog1935 |
it was the only known alternative at the time.
Without some type of almost stable surface oxidation treatment, you can't even get paint to stick. anodizing arrived just before WWII and it was notoriously thin. It wasn't until the 1980s that anodizing became a highly reliable surface treatment. Aluminum is the 4th most abundant element on the early - it's all the clay and it's eventually all heading back there. It's one industrial metal that cannot be found in nascent form naturally on earth. It did not become an industrial metal until about WWI.
the rods are never obsolete - the marketing is.
Last Edited By: bulldog1935 02/07/2009 21:09.
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oddsnrods |
Ahem.... | #4 | ||
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Posts: 185 02/07/2009 22:33 |
In the face of information posted..the actual process /formula used in the old days remains unknown. John Drewett and I exchanged notes on the process in
previous years, and I have been doing some experiments and have come pretty close to achieving a durable gloss black and thin black lead finish on a reel. The
black lead is actually pure graphite powder which is black and very hard to find. Many have made the mistake of using modern style stove black paste in an
attempt to 'refresh' old reels. The results are dull, grey and easily scratched. I will post a pic or two tomorrow for those interested. Regards,
Malcolm
Last Edited By: oddsnrods 02/07/2009 23:02.
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bulldog1935 |
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Posts: 6857 02/07/2009 23:11 Bulldog1935 |
Any way you look at it, the bronzing is a sulfuric acid dip.
Chris Hewett who used to refinish reels for Hardy repairs in Alnwick gave his formula to Bill Tucker at Highfields. Joe Janciuras has sent me his documented results a couple of times. I've tried a couple of commercial formulations for touching up scratches and found one that doesn't work very well and that one that does work very well. No one is stepping up to offer the service.
the rods are never obsolete - the marketing is.
Last Edited By: bulldog1935 02/08/2009 08:32.
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bow river |
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Posts: 1102 02/08/2009 01:28 |
oddsnrods
yes please show us some pictures , i heard you could send a reel back to hardy for about $200 , they will strip it and reapply a leaded finish , anyone else here this ,
Richard
Check out my web site for vintage reels & rods , guided float trips on canada's # 1 best trout river http://bowriveradventures.googlepages.com/home |
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enigma309 |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 475 02/08/2009 07:27 Reclusive! Like J D Salinger |
bulldog1935 wrote:I know of one person who has had success with techniques similar to, but not the same as, those described above. He is not offering the service because he doesn't want to be dragged into the whole "Reel faking" (or "Restoration!") scene. The original "Black leading" or Zebco worked well on cast iron, old stoves and fireplace ovens, but wasn't designed for aluminium |
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tiptop |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 489 02/08/2009 08:40 |
Ron -- What is the name of the touch-up product you found to work well?
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danielnadal |
#9 | |||
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Posts: 942 02/08/2009 08:46 |
Time ago I purchased an spitfire finish (polished, of course) Hardy Perfect 3 1/8 LHW and however I never had in mind to keep it that way, I decided to send it
back to the seller for a complete reblackening.
This was the reel pre-reblackening: 
This is the reel finished: 
Reel looks back better than the polished version but in no way is as beautifull and durable as the original finish is. I was able to watch how the finish started to rub off in some corners after some days of handling. Yes, the reel looks newly, but at this times I´d never back to purchase any other Perfect than one with the original finish. I love how my actual Perfects looks, much beautifull: 
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czkid |
Tll Death Do Us Part | #10 | ||
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Posts: 3853 02/08/2009 10:22 Moderator |
Ron,
You just have to wonder how many folks went to an early grave with some of these processes... sulfuric acid and arsenic... woopie!!! Almost as bad as the old radium dial markers on your watch. That put a lot of ladies in pine boxes. Ralph |
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oddsnrods |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 186 02/08/2009 11:52 |
Re blackleading, the bronzing solution would key the metal for the finish. In the factory setting the black lead itself would be brushed on quite rapidly, and
may have had the trade name 'Zebra Paste'. A protective lacquer (meths based as the Brits say) would have sealed the black lead and given some
protection. As we have seen, when the top lacquer is scratched and worn away, the black lead layer becomes very vulnerable and wears quickly with use till the
brownish sheen of the bronzing can be seen. In my experiment on a cheap Allcocks reel, the original paint was taken off using a dental sandblaster which
removed but a micron or two, leaving the original machine marks and any raised edges of logos and trade marks. The surface if the metal is keyed for the
finish, no need to mess about with acids. It saddens me to see many reels refinished, when I think of all that rubbing with abrasive paper removing much of the
reels character. My finish was made from the very pure , out of the ground, block of black graphite. Lube graphite from the hardware shops is not pure and is
grey in colour. Even without any lacquer (as seen here) the finish is very thin and has a nice sheen and will not scratch off with hard fingernail rubbing on
the edges. There are some rubs to be seen in the photos but that was before the finish had cured properly. Its some time since I have experimented with this
finish, maybe I should get back to it. Its only one version of the b/lead finish.
  
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Shoeless Joe |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 928 02/08/2009 13:10 |
czkid wrote:Drewett shares (p.71) what is now a humorous account involving a young, happy-go-lucky Wilf Sinton and his part in a bronzing solution spill on the streets of Alnwick ... I can imagine Sinton in the midst of a panic, running around as though his hair was on fire! Beautiful work, Malcolm! As you mentioned, it's also my understanding that the blokes in Alnwick did indeed use a commercially available stove paste ... have you had the opportunity to experiment with William's paste and if so, how were the post-lacquer results ... where's Raymond Humble when we need him  ?
Much akin to your sandblaster-facilitated etching, though the original bronzing solution was a highly caustic concoction (see Sinton  ), when properly diluted it did everything but mimic a school of piranha in the
midst of an aluminium feeding frenzy, as frames and spools, stamped and edge-knurled prior to acidic immersion, surfaced in fine fashion. While attention is
usually focused upon etching solutions and/or stove paste, I have often felt that the role of both the correct lacquer and the application thereof are
often underestimated.
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DoctorFly |
#13 | |||
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Posts: 207 02/08/2009 13:15 |
Has anyone used this on reels? (I'm sure that it works for touching up scratches on gun parts.) 
Regards, Doc
Last Edited By: DoctorFly 02/08/2009 13:41.
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enigma309 |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 477 02/08/2009 13:49 Reclusive! Like J D Salinger |
Doc,
I've not used that product but have had success with their Gun Blue This may be of interest Cheers Brian |
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oddsnrods |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 187 02/08/2009 14:18 |
Liquid chemicals will not produce anything like a b/lead finish. They may darken the metal slightly but thats all. I re read some of the info on this thread
and ponder some of the details. Lead finish is not 'arsenic bronzing' if so it would (I presume) had a green tinge, bronzing was the acid etch. Lead
finish is a graphite paste brushed thinly and quickly on the bronzing then lacquer applied as I mentioned before. It was not rubbed back many times out of the
acid bath. In Drewetts book he mentions a story of Jimmy Smith 'quickly' blackening a batch of reels so that they looked finished so that he would get
his bonus at the end of the week. They were cranking those reels out at the time . Another point stated anodizing was only reliable from the 80's - not
sure about that one either, I have an anodized Hardy Jock Scott reel from '53 plus other reels of theirs were finished thus, including the rotor of their
sea Altex. I would not bother grinding down pencils either for the graphite as there is clay mixed in...by the way the inside of the reel of mine in the pic
shows the inside back still old paint, rather than b/lead. Also I would not touch modern stove finishes as they are another version of shoe polish and will not
stay on a smooth alloy finish. Later on I will add some trivia here about how the old stoves were rendered black from new, and maintained that way....what
thrills.
Last Edited By: oddsnrods 02/08/2009 14:22.
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bulldog1935 |
#16 | |||
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Posts: 6860 02/08/2009 22:27 Bulldog1935 |
Doc, that particular product is about the worst, IMO.
The result is blue, not charcoal gray, and it's less than predictable.
the rods are never obsolete - the marketing is.
Last Edited By: bulldog1935 02/08/2009 22:31.
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bulldog1935 |
#17 | |||
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Posts: 6861 02/08/2009 22:30 Bulldog1935 |
czkid wrote:A friend shared his successful recipe with me: his solution is a mix of hydrochloric acid, arsenic metal, and iron sulfate, making a strongly oxidizing mixed acid, then he dries the part in hardwood dust. He has also played with different salts to achieve different colors, such as bronze. The results he showed me look very good. This is all stuff you don't want to "play" with in the basement or even keep around the house.
the rods are never obsolete - the marketing is.
Last Edited By: bulldog1935 02/09/2009 08:28.
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turtledoc |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 2387 02/08/2009 23:24 Moderator |
oddsnrods wrote:Malcolm - Regarding the reference to early anodizing......I can't speak with any first hand knowledge regarding Hardy's early finish, but I can state from experience that there is a very noticeable difference in the hardness of the anodizing on Bogdans from say the 50s & 60s compared to the current reels. I don't know exactly when the hardness reached its current state, but I think it had been in the last 15 to 20 years. The anodizing on those early reels is very thin and soft compared to the current finishes. Regarding the original topic of lead finishes......well that whole process is Greek to me 
Mark B |
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bulldog1935 |
#19 | |||
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Posts: 6863 02/09/2009 08:36 Bulldog1935 |
very simple, amazing that it's such a challenge. Look at the anodizing on a Heddon Imperial 125 or even a Shakespeare 1899/1900 - that is typical of 1950s
anodizing (type I).
Also on a Milward Flycraft - the anodizing is so thin the finishes are all gradually fading away due to surface oxidation. Compare those to the finish on a Lamson LP series reel, which is typical of 1980s anodizing (type II). Current type III anodizing produces much thicker and harder surfaces, achieving the hardness of tool steel.
the rods are never obsolete - the marketing is.
Last Edited By: bulldog1935 02/09/2009 11:21.
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oddsnrods |
#20 | |||
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Posts: 188 02/09/2009 23:57 |
Nothing very simple regarding the old black-leading. Many try , few succeed. Find your pure graphite which is a start. .
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