I know this has been discussed previously ad-nauseum, but.....I'm having a terrible time with CP failure on granger green--I'm using up to 5 coats and
still getting wierd mottling and the deadly pea-green effect. I'm using Al's with MOW varnish. I almost thinking that perhaps the thread itself is
contaminated, oiled or something-I've taken to washing my hands and wiping them off with a rag soaked with mineral spirits-anyone have a suggestion here?
should I try thinned CP coats?
This forum began as Clark's Classic Bamboo Rod Forum, founded by Clark Davis for all who share a passion for classic rods. The forum is now owned by Whitefish Press aka Dr. Todd Larson - banjo.
For those who don't use English as their primary language we now have a translator for your language of choice hosted by Google.
0 Kudo
- Members Corner
- Forum Announcements
- Collecting Bamboo Fly Rods
- Fishing Bamboo Fly Rods
- Rod making, restoration, repairs and discussion on those related topics concerning bamboo rods.
- Rod and Reel Makers Forum
- Information About Makers & Manufacturers
- Taper Exchange
- Appraisals & Identification of Bamboo Fly Rods
- Ephemera, empherma and Ephemerella.....
- Book Talk
- Photos, paintings, written stories and talents.
- Classic Reels
- Collecting and Tying Classic Flies
- The Cooks Kitchen
- The Classic Fly Rod Classifieds
- Technical Support
CP Failure
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 greyreefer |
CP Failure |
Lead | ||
|
Posts: 128 03/23/2009 13:42
|
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
kimk |
#1 | |||
|
Posts: 645 03/23/2009 17:08 |
Yes, Now you know why so many folks HATE CP. I have never used Al's and only have experience with the original Brilliance ( water based) and Aero Gloss (
lacquer).
For either one, I apply 3 coats cut 50/50 with the proper thinner and another 2 or 3 full strength. I apply by rubbing it in with a dubbing needle, and I really rub it in, using the side of the needle to massage the thread much like burnishing. I think the problems arise when the thread fibers are not totally saturated with CP. This allows varnish to wick in where ever there is an unsealed fiber. Applying the CP on top of the thread is not good enough. The CP must penetrate and seal every fiber. Oils from fingers will act as a resist, more so for water based CP products but this can also be a problem for solvent based products too. One note -- different CP products will result in different looking results. AgMD |
|||
|
|
||||
|
oldfishbrain |
#2 | |||
|
Posts: 1310 03/23/2009 17:12 |
Those CPs can drive you crazy. I use Briliance II Have found out that in order to be guaranteed not to have bleed throughs I had to go 6 coats of a 50/50
diluted CP (with distiled water) folowed by 6 coats of full strength CP. A pain indeed, but did not have to hold my breath when I started varnishing. Less of a
pain than having to cut out wraps and start from scratch. All solvent based CPs darkened the color of the wraps considerably and were semi transparent (you
could still see the guide feet).
Maker of light line nodeless bamboo fly rods
avardanis@sympatico.ca |
|||
|
|
||||
|
bluejayee |
#3 | |||
|
Posts: 693 03/23/2009 17:58 |
Hi Guys, Yeah, it's a pain. My system is to; thin it a little, put it on with a needle, be sure it's on long enough to penetrate, wipe it entirely
off, let it dry, maybe do it twice, then plastic coat with polyurethane. When you dip it'll seep up from underneath. I hate it. Jay Edwards
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
marcusw |
#4 | |||
|
Posts: 82 03/24/2009 11:16 |
this may be heresy but I put on 2 coats of Varathane which seems to be the perfect sealer - and then a good quality spar varnish and have never had a problem -
Works for me but then I have no idea what it might all look like a few years from now and my total life time out put is only 23 (with 24 and 25 in the works).
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Ben Kann |
a better, older way | #5 | ||
|
Posts: 180 03/24/2009 14:06 |
Try using (freshly made) Shellac. 2-3 coats in 1-lb. cut and 1-2 coats in 2-lb. cut. The 1-lb. cut is mostly alcohol and WILL get into all your wraps. It will
also prep them for the 2-lb. cut which is a perfect sealer.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
oldfishbrain |
#6 | |||
|
Posts: 1311 03/24/2009 15:35 |
It all depends on what you want your final wraps to look like. Transparent, semi transparent or completely opaque. And whether you want the silk color to
remain true or darken a bit. All of the methods above give you different final looks. A test stick with side by side comparisons of the different methods and
your color of silk, is a very worthwhile exercise before you decide.
Maker of light line nodeless bamboo fly rods
avardanis@sympatico.ca |
|||
|
|
||||
 john channer |
#7 | |||
|
Posts: 719 03/25/2009 08:48 |
Grey;
I highly recommend to anyone who wants to color preserve wraps is to not dip varnish after wrapping. Either spray or brush varnish after the wraps are done or varnish the blank first then wrap over it. Dip varnishing over color preserved wraps is highly frustrating and has a high failure rate. The old rods you see that all have color preserver on the thread were done with either lacquer or shellac then either sprayed or brushed, the big production houses didn't dip, their finishes were also different then in the days of now EPA regulations. john |
|||
|
|
||||
|
grass n glue |
C.P. Masters | #8 | ||
|
Posts: 74 03/25/2009 19:12 |
It looks like A.J. and Carlin both use c.p. and dip their rods and don't have a problem. Maybe they will chime in.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
kimk |
#9 | |||
|
Posts: 647 03/25/2009 19:32 |
John, I believe your recommendation is well founded. After my first CP/varnish dip failure I gave this a lot of thought. In reviewing many posts on CP failure,
on this board and others, it seems that dipping is often a common part of the equation. My speculation is that the pressure of the column of varnish plus the
long time that mutch of the section is imersed, leads to the varnish being forced under pressure into any unsealed fibers.
I see two possible solutions. Avoid dipping over the CP covered wraps by dipping before wrapping or brush/spray/rub application after wrapping and CP. Or, you can try to perfect a method of sealing the fibers with CP. I have had some CP failures when brushing varnish over CP, so I opted to persue the second option. I found a method which works for me although it is time and labor intensive. I think it would not be useful in a production situation but for the fooling arround I do, it seems just fine. One of the fascinating things about rod finishing, is the variety of materials and methods which work. The only things I could be dogmatic about are, the value of finding a method that works for you, and the value of testing everything on a hardwood dowel before you commit to using the method on a rod. AgMD |
|||
|
|
||||
|
bobk |
#10 | |||
|
Posts: 54 03/25/2009 20:05 |
KIMK is correct in that the wraps are under pressure while in the dip tank and the varnish gets under them. But here is what I found to be the problem, at
least for me, and how I eliminated it.
The varnish was getting behind the wraps by going in down along the inside of the guide foot. There is a noticeable space here particularly on the larger guides. So, what I now do after brushing the CP on the wraps is to hold each section vertically and then drip or work the CP so that it runs down along the guide foot and it gets in behind the wrap. Turn that same section end for end and do the other foot of the guide. I no longer have the problem. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
greyreefer |
#11 | |||
|
Posts: 130 03/28/2009 16:00
|
do you have any problem with excessive amounts of CP showing under the varnish? Excess on the blank itself?
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
tapermaker |
#12 | |||
|
Posts: 730 03/28/2009 18:05 |
i use a thin piece of felt to wipe off the area under the guide loop after using a needle to feed the cp under the guide feet. i havnt noticed any problem
with it showing after varnish is applied
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
bobk |
#13 | |||
|
Posts: 56 03/28/2009 19:18 |
greyreefer,
I use Gudebrod CP and cut it 50% with water. I use a brush and saturate the wraps and remove the excess. I apply any where from 4 to 6 coats. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
flyflkr |
#14 | |||
|
Posts: 22 03/28/2009 20:37 |
I had to add my two cents worth here and say I've come to hate useing color preserver also. I have had the same problems with blotches after I varnish the
entire rod. I learned to really saturate the wraps with the CP. My problem area is mostly over the guide feet. I think the varnish gets in under the thread
around the guide foot. I even took the brush and tried to get under the guides around the feet with the CP to seal it. It's a real problem. I also had a
rod I had to redo because the varnish on the wraps, up on the tips, started to crack. I was able to peel the varnish right off the thread. Used the wrong kind
of shellac I think. Won't try that combination again.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
greyreefer |
#15 | |||
|
Posts: 131 03/28/2009 21:10
|
what I'm trying to figure out is-----I used 4-5 coats of Al's-(3 diluted,3 full strength) and 3 coats of varnish before dipping--all the bleed-thru
was under the guide feet---seems like with all that, the silk would have to be saturated. Now stripping and rewraping entire rod--wouldn't you think the
bleed-thru would occur when you put on the FIRST coat of varnish? (instead of the dip coat)
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Middle Branch |
#16 | |||
|
Posts: 579 03/29/2009 02:21 |
The reason why it's bleeding when you dip is because the pressure on the wraps from being immersed in liquid. The same reason why your ears pop when you go
to the bottom of the deep end of the swimming pool. The varnish finds it's way in past the CP. I use Al's and go 5-6 coats full strength. I keep a
stack of cut pieces of thread next to me when I apply the cp. I slop every coat on and get a bunch on the blank on both sides of the wrap. I then take the cut
piece of thread and pull it to the wrap on each flat to get rid of the excess. There will always be a little left over which I then try to get rid of with my
fingernail (after I've applied the last coat of CP). On my finished rods you can't see any cp bumps on the blank. I still have yet to have a rod come
out perfect though. There will always be a bleed or two.
|
|||
|
|
||||
- Members Corner
- Forum Announcements
- Collecting Bamboo Fly Rods
- Fishing Bamboo Fly Rods
- Rod making, restoration, repairs and discussion on those related topics concerning bamboo rods.
- Rod and Reel Makers Forum
- Information About Makers & Manufacturers
- Taper Exchange
- Appraisals & Identification of Bamboo Fly Rods
- Ephemera, empherma and Ephemerella.....
- Book Talk
- Photos, paintings, written stories and talents.
- Classic Reels
- Collecting and Tying Classic Flies
- The Cooks Kitchen
- The Classic Fly Rod Classifieds
- Technical Support
Quick Reply
The Orvis database by Greg Reynolds Finally available again!!
Check out the Paul Young Rod Co. database which is owned and maintained by member Robert Golder (quashnet).
Paul Young Rod Co. database by quashnet
DISCLAIMER:The views, and opinions, posted here are the sole responsibility of the poster. Negative comments, when directed at individuals, or other private concerns, will not be tolerated, posters should treat this media no differently than any other media source, in other words, if you would not submit what you are going to post in the newspaper, or a magazine, and sign your name as the author, kindly refrain from doing so here. The Classic Fly Rod Forum is not an open air forum for vendor/maker complaints. If you seek resolution, it is recommended you talk to the vendor/maker. If you seek an audience, it is recommended you go elsewhere. The admin and the Moderators reserve the right to remove any items deemed inappropriate according to the rules of conduct prominently displayed on each forum. If you have any questions or concerns you are free to email us at
send email to the Classic Fly Rod Forum
Posting to sell Domain names and the like, i.e. SPAM, is against YUKU Policy, if you post these types of posts here you will be banned from this board and YUKU will more than likely ban you from the site entirely. Thank you..........
The Fly Fishing Loop is sponsored by flydepot.com
[ Home Waters | Next | Random | List | Search ]
