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 slate river |
#21 | |||
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Posts: 75 04/04/2009 20:12 |
Ralph and Bob, well said and I agree if it feels good on the lawn it will feel good on the water. Actually it will probably feel even better on the water.
Case in point..received my new Sweetgrass 7'9" 2/2 3 1/2oz. 4/5wt yesterday and got to lawn cast it before dinner last night. It is an exceptional
rod that will be even more fun on the water. Can't wait for the summer on the Gunnison.
Bob |
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 alistair59 |
#22 | |||
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Posts: 217 04/05/2009 00:02 |
tim simbari wrote: If I wanted to fish with a soul-less rod, I would fish graphite or fiberglass. Both materials make rods that are functionally superior to bamboo, in terms of pure performance. I would give up fly fishing for trout with bamboo fly rods if I felt that the functional art, produced by makers I consider my friends, had no soul. These makers keep the history and craft vibrant with every rod they make. Maybe this view is animist, but it gets me through the trout season and beyond... Tight Lines! Alistair
Last Edited By: alistair59 04/05/2009 00:04.
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quadrate |
#23 | |||
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Posts: 69 04/05/2009 02:38 |
tim simbari wrote:I would disagree with you wholeheartedly. I used to think that flexing a rod you could tell you a whole lot. It really doesn't. For some reason a Catskill style taper will show its flex and action with a couple of snaps pretty accurately. Do that with a parabolic rod and you'll think its a dog of a rod. Put a line on each of those 2 different action rods and you will get the reverse reaction. The catskill taper rod will feel decent and cast ok but the parabolic rod becomes a casting machine. Completely different from when you made those couple of snaps. I have seen a bunch of rods that flexed very nicely but once you put a line on them they did not perform as expected. A couple that come to mine are a T&T pardigm that was 8' 2pc #5. Flexed wonderfully. Put a line on it and the middle of the rod folded up immediate past 20 ft. That wouldn't work for my fishing at all. Once I measured the rod I found out why, the mid should have been beefed up another ferrule size and it would have been fine. A friend has a Payne 102-L that is about new from the 1950s. I always loved looking at that rod and had flexed it and it felt like a true 4 wt. 8 footer that wasn't a noodle. Put a line on it and it was a dog, much too wimpy for effective fishing. Better not be any wind when you pulled that rod out. The final rod that comes to mind is a Paul Young Perfectionist. Everyone knows there are a bunch of tapers for this rod. This one felt very smooth flexing it. Casting it was a different story. By far the worst Perfectionist I have ever seen. The tip folded up at 20 ft with a DT4. No casting trick could overcome it. When I mic'ed it the tip section was flat .066" for 7 inches. No wonder it folded up. Just a bad design. I am of the opinion that a good caster can make just about any rod look good casting in a couple of minutes. Even if the line is wrong a good caster can compensate for it. Even if a good caster doesn't like the rod at all, he can still effectively deliver the line. I have seen many people cast rods on my lawn and by watching them I can tell which line out of several that they tried they cast best. Often times that is not the line they "think" they like. You can lead the horse to the water but you can't make him drink. Tim Zietak |
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ibookje |
#24 | |||
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Posts: 1546 04/05/2009 04:39 |
Good analysis Tim!
I have have cast only a dozen boo rods so I have hardly scratched the surface in terms of knowing different tapers or taper styles. Put a line on it, or even better fish with them and you will know whether the rod/taper suits you. I think I cast a pretty decent line (Mel Krieger certified my FFF certificate eons ago), so I know when a rod does what I like. What's your opinion on putting a line weight down on wimpy rods or putting a line weight up on rods that won't come alive with the advised line weight? Jay |
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gooseberryrods |
The waters I fish.... | #25 | ||
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Posts: 599 04/05/2009 09:32 |
require that I execute roll casts, mend line, protect fine tippets, AND play fish. Perhaps someone can tell me how lawn-casting brings out the essence of a fly
rod taking these things into consideration? It reminds me of the time I attended a rod makers gathering and asked a prominent maker how he thought my rod
handled a 4wt. line. As he watched me cast he told me that it was impossible to tell without putting a leader on the end of my fly line.
Last Edited By: gooseberryrods 04/05/2009 13:18.
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pcg |
#26 | |||
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Posts: 2546 04/05/2009 09:50 Admin |
Good shift, Scott. Lawn casting has always been relatively meaningless for me. The small to medium size New England rivers I fish require a lot of technical
skill--and I don't mean classic overhead casting. I might get to "cast" 10-15% of the time, while spending the bulk of my line effort at roll
casting or dropping a 9' 6x tippet into pocket water 20' away. This is short rod work -- 7 to 8' lengths. It's only twice a year when I'm
privileged to go Salmon fishing that the longer rods come out & I can throw a line out 60'+.
So taking a rod out on the lawn tells me a bit, but there's so much more. For me at least, contact with water while playing a rod is essential. |
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cutthroattroutnm |
Handling the End Game in all Conditions | #27 | ||
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Posts: 46 04/05/2009 10:34 |
A bamboo rod has to do more than cast line, it has to handle fish, in all kinds of conditions. These days, most of us release all of the fish we land. That
fact puts an imperative on managing the end game of landing fish, to get them back in the water as quickly as possible, with as little damage as possible.
Some bamboo rods just can't do that well, particularly with big fish in heavy water. Their tapers were probably originally designed for fishing wet flies
to 8" brook trout in the Catskills. They can look awfully pretty, but they are just not up to the task of efficiently landing a big trout, say on the
Eagle Pool, during a Green Drake hatch on the Frying Pan. With the quality of today's terminal tackle, we can muscle up big fish even with 6X (although I
have my doubts about fluorocarbon in really cold weather), and in that environment not all cane rods are created equal. Just like in golf, it's not just a
long drive, but also an outstanding short game, that's required for success.
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seattlesetters |
#28 | |||
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Posts: 635 04/05/2009 11:33 |
cutthroattroutnm wrote:This is definitely one of the main reasons I cannot tell how a rod performs by lawn casting. There have been rods I've absolutely loved casting and even fishing that simply failed as fish fighting tools in more difficult conditions. I take catch & release very seriously, and won't keep a rod that won't effectively and efficiently fight fish in waters where I might reasonably expect to use it. 
"You know how much I love a nice rack!" |
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quadrate |
#29 | |||
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Posts: 70 04/05/2009 13:45 |
I too agree that lawn casting will not show you everything, particularly fighting a fish. The flex and bending shape the rod takes does not change from the
lawn to the stream. That stays static. It will tell you enough casting it to point yo in the right direction. Landing a fish is a different story and if
everyone was so concerned about landing fish in a timely manner then line weights under 4 would probably be non-existant. They don't have the power to
land anything more than an 8-10" trout in a resonable amount of time. Tapers would probably be more towards the parabolics since they are the most
efficient and have the majority of power in the butt where the strength is. A lot of this casting stuff is rod taper/action dependent.
A typical catskill style rod flexes too much in the tip and relatively too little in the butt to be an effective big river big fish rod. The closer you get to parabolic you get the opposite. A parabolic rod probably isn't the first choice on a small stream but as you get into larger rivers and bigger rods they out perform others. I like the golf analogy. Rods too have parameters on what they will do best, although they usually can be used for a very wide range of situations in the medium sizes (i.e. 8' 5wt. rods). You can't hit a 9 iron 200 yards no matter how hard you swing, and you can't flop a 3 wood around the green. Tim Zietak |
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alistair59 |
#30 | |||
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Posts: 218 04/05/2009 15:21 |
slate river wrote: Bob, how can you tell by lawn casting how this on-stream performance will feel?  Tight Lines! Alistair
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cutthroattroutnm |
More Comments on the End Game | #31 | ||
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Posts: 47 04/05/2009 19:36 |
I'd like to back up what Tim said about lightweight rods. There is really no place for anything under a 5 wt. if you fish big-fish water, and even those
should be real rods with enough backbone to land fish efficiently. I see people on the San Juan with these 2 and 3 wt. graphite rods that take 10 minutes to
land a fish that should be in in no more than 2 or 3. If we are really serious about catch-and-release fishing, we should be equipped with tackle to make that
process successful. I stopped fishing my 7' Phillipson Preferred on anything other than the tiniest of water because it just could not land fish quickly
enough.
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Chartist1 |
#32 | |||
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Posts: 320 04/05/2009 19:37 |
For me, buying a fly rod is close to buying a car. Ask folks why the chose a particular model they'll say great fuel mileage, reliability or good safety
rating. The auto makers know this is hogwash as a whole. They buy a particular car based on aesthetics. A car is seen as an extension of themselves.
For me, aesthetics are 40% of the deal, 60% fishability. I don't care if a rod is the best caster in the world, if I can't take it out of the tube, stare at it and say wow, then it's not for me. |
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tiptop |
#33 | |||
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Posts: 533 04/05/2009 19:46 |
cutthroattroutnm wrote:Seems to me that how quick you can land a fish is more a function of the tippet size you use. If you use 5X for dry fly fishing, I doubt there will be much difference in the time it takes with a 3wt rod vs. a 6wt. |
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Chartist1 |
#34 | |||
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Posts: 323 04/05/2009 21:08 |
I've run into guys fishing steelhead on 6x tippet. That only leads to you catching a steelhead with three older flies in its mouth.
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tim simbari |
#35 | |||
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Posts: 345 04/05/2009 23:06 |
quadrate wrote: Point taken. However that might be the other10% . OK maybe 12% 
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Boo.fiberglassflyro... |
#36 | |||
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Posts: 127 04/05/2009 23:35 |
So, if what a lot of you are saying, "to know a rod it must be fished", are you rod builders and sellers willing to allow the potential buyer fish
the rod before buying it? How about three day fishing inspection. I can se it now, "I liked the way your rod lawn cast. But, I took it down the Big Horn
for three days and didn't like it. So, I'm sending it back." These bamboo casting fairs/gatherings are now obsolete.
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Marty |
#37 | |||
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Posts: 110 04/06/2009 07:37 |
I would have to agree that lawn casting doesn't tell you everything about a rod. I have never lawn cast a rod and liked it that I did not also like it on the water. I have lawn cast some rods I thought were mediocre that came alive on the water and surprised me. Lawn casting is in my opinion a good starting point and at least a lot better than just wiggling a rod. It also can with a target relieve some cabin fever when you can't actually make it to the water. As several have pointed out its the only option we have in many cases and IMHO is definitely better than just wiggling it. I would also point out that there have been several rods I decided to sell after fishing them several times and deciding they weren't exactly suited to me. Life is too short for cheap scotch and plastic rods.
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El Capitan |
#38 | |||
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Posts: 2 04/06/2009 08:03 |
I wholeheartedly agree with the "rod as a fishing tool" philosophy of previous posters. A rod should be stream tested before you know if it
is truly a great all around rod. Lawn casting is fun and certainly has its place in the testing of a rod but only gives limited information towards the
complete picture. Unfortunately there is often no other option for testing available.
Last Edited By: El Capitan 04/06/2009 08:24.
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slate river |
#39 | |||
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Posts: 83 04/06/2009 21:29 |
Alistair59,
To answer your question, first let me say I do not consider myself a collector or an expert on bamboo. I am also not a rod builder or restorer. However, I am a fly fisherman like you and many of us here. I 've also been told I am not a half-bad caster and an ok fisherman. I have a modest collection of about 30 bamboo rods and fish them all. But, here is what I think I do know in my humble opinion at least as it applies to me...if a rod casts well for me on my lawn then in my experience it has always casted well for me on the stream. Maybe I should have qualified my comments as they related to casting only. I do agree with you if your point deals with all around fishing performance that lawn casting alone will not tell you how a rod will play and handle a big fish. I will say that I have never lawn casted a rod that felt good and also did not feel good and fish good on the water. Cases in point: Granger 8040, Granger 8642, Leonard Model 50, Heddon Model 20 2f, Heddon Model 35 1 3/4f, numerous Brackett era Winstons, Sweetgrass 7'9", Jeff Wagner 7'6" 5wt, Thramer Hollowbuilt, Orvis Battenkill, and the list can go on. I have no doubt that some people are more experienced and more qualified than I to judge the true performance of a particular rod. However, as it applies to me and only me if it feels good and casts good then it usually fishes good. Bob |
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tim simbari |
#40 | |||
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Posts: 348 04/06/2009 21:50 |
slate river wrote: Bob, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Experience. And I'd be willing to bet that with 30 or so rods, if somebody handed you a rod in a shop and youy gave it a couple snaps, you'd have a pretty fair idea as to what you have in your hand. |
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