Proportions, hackle gauges, and things that make me nuts...

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catskilljohn	Proportions, hackle gauges, and things that make me nuts...		Lead	[-]
Posts: 200 04/08/2009 22:14	Tags : None Someone asked me a while ago why I cut my hair so short. The answer to that is easy, its so I dont pull it all out during the time I am tying flies. I constantly struggle with proportons, and just when I think I get in a groove, I see something or hear some advise that has me starting over again. This new book I have is a good example. Kuttner told me to "study the plates", and I know what he means. I brought a dozen drys for him to look at, and he advised me the tails are a hair short. Looking at the plates in the McClane book, I see what Frank was refering to. I do have some old Catskill drys tyed by a Catskill expert, and they look remarkably similar to the ones in the plates. I have wondered how the old masters size hackle, and was told the Dettes "used a #10 for a #12, #12 for a #14, etc. It does seem to work out, as this method produces a 2X hook gap hackle collar, at least on Mustad hooks. I tyed 2 Dark Cahills, the one on the right with 1.5X[#12 on the gauge] hook gap hackle and the one on the left with 2X[#10 on the gauge], and this is the result... I was satisfied with 1.5 gap hackle, but when you tye a wingless fly like the RF Beaverkill, the hackle looks way too small. Something about the wing makes it look stable even with a smaller hackle. What I am asking is, what do you guys do as far as sizing hackle? Do you think the fly on the left looks more Catskill than the one on the right? Do you make your tails a full hook length? Should I up my medication? Thanks in advance for your opinion, CJ
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HFR53		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 14 04/09/2009 02:54	What I think the reasoning behind the Dettes proportions may be is that it stretched the usefullness of a India neck out,more hackle and smaller sized flies per neck,I used to do the same thing before Metz became available
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Marty		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 117 04/09/2009 08:03	Nice looking flies!!!! For myself, I stick to the 1.5 hackle and full length of shank tail. That said I do not use a gauge. I put a hook in the vise and use that for reference to pull the hackle for however many I am going to tie of that pattern/ size (just the way I learned too long ago to change now). For the rough mountain streams I do overhackle a bit for higher floatation and double gap is about the right amount IMHO. To my eye for display the one of the right looks more correct. The trout will likely love either in the right run. Life is too short for cheap scotch and plastic rods. Tight Lines!!! -M Last Edited By: Marty 04/09/2009 08:31. Edited 1 time.
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roycestearns		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 154 04/09/2009 10:53	Nice ties John. Have you thrown the two proportions in the water... any difference?
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tbc1415		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 175 04/09/2009 13:25	Both are very nice ties. When I see longer length hackles like the 2x it brings to mind older pre-19?? flies. This is not based on a focused study of Catskill flies, just my impression based on wherever such general impressions come from. Probably from older illustrations vs modern photographs. I think the 1.5X looks like a more developed or modernized version of the 2X. This of course is looking at it from the year 2009 perspective. In summary Great work, reduce medications TC
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waltryan1		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 34 04/11/2009 09:06	I like the look f both flies but the 1 1/2 x gap hackle looks more "right" to me. I keep going back to A.K. Best's book "Production Fly Tying" when I have questions on proportion.
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narcodog		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 220 04/11/2009 11:42	If you tie at 1.5 gap for the Catskill dry's would you also reduce the hackle on a variant to say 3x instead of 4x?
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catskilljohn		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 203 04/11/2009 12:33	Thanks for the input guys. narco, that was one of the reasons I am getting a little mixed up, because 2X hackle is approaching some tyers variant territory. I have been looking over flies from various tyers, and it seems everyone has there own style. Ed VanPut seems to use the 1.5X hackle collar, and stands his wings upright at a 20* angle. Dave Brandt uses what looks like less than a 1.5X hackle collar, and his Dun Variant is just at the 2X. He sells a gauge to test your hackle, it has holes in it to poke the hackle collar through. My 1.5X #12's dont even fit through the #10 hole in that gauge. The modern day Dette flies are definately 2X, just like the days of old, and the flies in Kuttners bins look the same. I know Frank farms some of the bin flies out, but he is very particular of the flies he sells, whether he tyed them or someone else did. Dennis at Catskillflies tyes all his local dry flies for the bins, his hackle is 2X, and he splays his wings at 45*. I know from watching them sometimes my 2X hackled flies fall face down in the stream, probably more from a lazy cast than anything, but enough to make me think they are front heavy. It was enough to make me start tying wings on the sparse side, and setting them back from the eye 2 eye lengths. I really appreciate the advise, I am trying to find a method and style to stick with that will help me with consistency and speed. CJ here is a photo of the Brandt gauge, I put a scale next to the #12 hole, its exactly 5/8 of an inch. Last Edited By: catskilljohn 04/11/2009 12:43. Edited 1 time.
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quashnet		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2541 04/11/2009 12:40 Moderatus Muscae	In the late 1970's, The American Fly Fisher published a photo piece called "Quill Gordon." Several Quill Gordon flies from the AMFF collection, each produced by a different fly tier, were photographed in a group. In the center was a fly by Theodore Gordon, and surrounding it were Quill Gordons by Art Flick, Ray Bergman, Rube Cross, and many other tiers. A similar photo called "Cahills" was published in another issue of TAFF. The immediate impression was that each tier's work was very different with regard to proportions. Most of the flies would have landed upright on the water, but Cross cocked his tail fibers so that his flies probably floated on their sides, looking like an injured fly and thus an easy meal for a trout. Art Flick's winged dries (as opposed to his variants) were tied with rather short, sparse hackles and only a very few tail fibers. The hook could not be kept away from the water. But Flick did not tie flies in commercial volume, and he liked to fish pocket water. His fly would only rest in a pocket for a second or two before he lifted the line and cast the fly to another spot. So sparse, short hackles were acceptable to him. The Dettes and Darbees tied commercially and probably their flies ride higher in the water because they knew they would have to satisfy customers who would fish more varied water types. "To have confidence in one's flies is half the battle. If a fly looks right to you on the water, it is apt to look right to the trout. It is the effect one wishes, not so much its appearance close to the human eye." - Theodore Gordon, letter to Guy Jenkins, March 14, 1913 Quashnet's Paul H. Young Rod Database has photos and descriptions of over 445 PHY Co. rods, plus catalogs, accessories, etc. Thank you to all who continue to send me PHY rod photos and info.
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creakycane		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2163 04/11/2009 13:18	Both great ties - Fow what its worth, I try to make my Catkill dries closer in overall impression to the one on the left, with the hackle length perhaps ideally slightly shorter (1.75!), bunched tight and with space at the eye - and a tail like the one of the left. I like to make the woodduck wings stick out of the hackle slightly. But, I like to tied a variety, some for slow water, some for pocket water, some that are more like 13's on 12 hooks etc etc......
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catskilljohn		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 209 04/15/2009 19:48	quashnet wrote: In the late 1970's, The American Fly Fisher published a photo piece called "Quill Gordon." Several Quill Gordon flies from the AMFF collection, each produced by a different fly tier, were photographed in a group. In the center was a fly by Theodore Gordon, and surrounding it were Quill Gordons by Art Flick, Ray Bergman, Rube Cross, and many other tiers. A similar photo called "Cahills" was published in another issue of TAFF. I think this is the picture... I saved it the last time you posted it! CJ
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peregrines		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6 04/18/2009 13:50	John, you may find this link helpful. There's a an interesting SBS, but at the end there's also a set of 3 hackle gauges used by the Dettes that you can print out and laminate. http://www.flyanglersonli...ing/fotw2/112904fotw.php mark
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Proportions, hackle gauges, and things that make me nuts...

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