You can use 000 or 0000 steel wool to take out any minor rust before hand.
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scott bearden |
#21 | |||
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Camelia oil, lightly applied to the forms in between planing sessions will stop all rust. A little goes a long ways and it doesn't interfere with glues and
varnish. You can always wipe the forms down with a clean, dry cloth before using it again. Just don't use anything that came out of your clothes dryer.
There is silicone in fabric softener.
You can use 000 or 0000 steel wool to take out any minor rust before hand. |
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David Bolin |
#22 | |||
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Chris,
Look me up if you're ever in town again. I'm just a couple miles for the HU campus. I use a light coat of 3n1 oil when they're not going to be used for a while. Just make sure you degrease them before planing. You don't want any oily stuff on your strips. Put the Southern Rodmakers Gathering on your list of things to do this fall. It's in Mountain Home in October. You don't have to be an experienced rod maker to attend. I was still working on forms at my first gathering. David |
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chrislee85 |
#23 | |||
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I appreciate the invitation, I will definitely keep it in mind. I don't know how my work schedule will permit since that is wrapping up our
"busy" season, but depending on when it is I will talk to the wife and see if she is up for a trip to Arkansas. Hopefully by then I will have a set
of forms built and moving towards my first rod.
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canerodscom |
#24 | |||
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Chris,
I'll second David's invitation. We have lotsa fun at SRG. We cast dozens of rods including a few outstanding rods each year, hear some good presentations, and tell lotsa fish tales. Harry
Harry Boyd
maker@canerods.com http://www.canerods.com |
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chrislee85 |
#25 | |||
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Are the dates set yet?
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canerodscom |
#26 | |||
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October 23-25 (Thursday - Saturday) But many folks arrive early and get together on Wednesday night for the evening meal and liquid refreshments.
HB
Harry Boyd
maker@canerods.com http://www.canerods.com |
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chrislee85 |
#27 | |||
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Thanks Harry, I'm not sure if this year will be the best or not. I have to drive to Atlanta for a wedding that following weekend, but we'll see how it
works out.
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chrislee85 |
#28 | |||
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I finally got all of the first side filed down. I unclamped the bars and noticed that they were no longer square. I can attribute this to me waiting 6 months
of them sitting around and going through a move across town. I have clamped them temporarily together until I can scribe them and start drilling. I am
concerened that they might not be as accurate/precise in rodmaking. What are ya'lls opinions?
Thanks, Chris |
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chrislee85 |
#29 | |||
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Another question regarding the drilling of the holes. To make sure I have this right, let me state what I know and someone correct me if I'm wrong.
1. Drill holes every 5", starting 1" from end for the set screws. (Won't one end have a screw more than 1" from the end? Does this matter?) 2. Drill holes in between these 5" intervals for the dowels. It reads to me, in the instructions that there are additional holes 9/16" from the center of the set screws? What are these for? Are the two points I mentioned above all of the holes that are drilled? Thanks, Chris |
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chrislee85 |
#30 | |||
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Is a tape measure sufficient for measuring the placement for drilling the holds for the sholder bolts, dowels, etc?
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gmreeves |
#31 | |||
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Yes. Just do the best you can.
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thousandstar |
#32 | |||
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I just finished mine today! I used a measuring tape.
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msf |
Another Penrose question | #33 | ||
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He states the depths at each end of the shallow side are 0.025" and .155" but I can;t find where he gives the fatter side dims. Does anyone know the
depths of the reverse side ends?
Also, just as an aside, how is a "swelled butt" form made? I would assume you have to adjust the angle by increasing the 0.001" per inch taper. I would think that the form could only be used for swelled butts after that. Thanks, Kris Added: Found the dims, never mind. I'm still interested in what the swelled butt form looks like.
Last Edited By: msf 04/17/2009 08:46.
Edited 1 time.
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mattcliff |
Drilling straight holes | #34 | ||
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I made some forms per Penrose about 10 years ago. By far the biggest problem I had was trying to get my holes straight. As I learned the hard way, the bit
tends to "skip" or wander across the face of the hard steel when it first comes into contact with it, and this can get the hole started at an angle,
which is difficult or impossible to correct. If anyone with experience in metalworking techniques has some suggestions for dealing with this, it would
probably be pretty helpful.
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canerodscom |
#35 | |||
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mattcliff,
The easiest way to keep the drill from skipping involves two steps. First, use a center-punch to put a small "dent" in the forms at exactly the right place. Second, use a center-drill to start each hole. A center-drill is a short, stiff drill with a 60* point. You drill only deep enough to get a good 60* angle hole started. That 60* hole keeps your regular jobber drill moving in the right direction. |
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msf |
Punching | #36 | ||
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There are a number of hints I would give that aren't mentioned in the Penrose directions. IMHO:
-Use a prick punch and dead blow to start your holes (1 strike only), a magnifying lense helps a lot too. Use a center punch after that and regular hammer and do 3 or 4 firm knocks. Then you can use a center drill to start the holes. This is how I did the holes and they are right on. -Draw filing should not be done with a "back and forth" rubbing. You should apply even pressure along the file and draw toward you. Pause after each stroke and wipe the chips. You can use oil but I just carded the file every 20 strokes. Also, my forms are 60" long. I'm a short guy and can't reach over the whole thing to draw 60" in one stroke, so I had to draw file each half separately. To do this and come out with a flat surface you have to pay attention and count your draws. I used 1-3/8 steel since it's what I could get at the yard. The forms are uber heavy and I spent just under 7 hours draw filing each matching face (so 21 hours to draw file). That may seem like a lot of time but the flats are have less than .003 variation over the 60", so it's worth it---of course a surface grinder would make this much easier. -If you use thicker than 3/4" stock, don't drill and thread more than 3/4" for the set screws. You are asking to have a tap break-off if you do. Drill through with your 1/4" then drill down the excess depth with an oversized drill. Kris |
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troutcreek |
Form Building Tips | #37 | ||
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I used the same instructions and my forms came out pretty good. The only suggestions I have deal with the basics.
* Wear safety glasses and gloves. You are going to make a lot of sharp metal chips. * Use chalk on your mill file to prevent clogging. * Cutting the grove on the tip section first is a really good tip. It is easy to cut to deep. * Buy good quality drill and taps . In fact buy several taps because of wear (I used 2). * Buy taps from industrial house. McMaster Carr or similar. Most of what is available in local hardware stores will cause you trouble. * Use a tool or devise to ensure your tap stays straight while cutting. It is easy to break a tap. * Use tapping lubricant. I use a special tap goo (I forget the name), but have used kerosene, lard, and light oil . Enjoy the process- It is not that hard. Good luck and go slow. Ray |
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Battenkiller |
#38 | |||
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I've restarted my forms after about 4-5 years of sitting. They are based on the Penrose instructions and the Lawrence Waldron adjustment method, with a
few minor tweaks by myself and the machine shop I hired to do the hard part.
Notice I said "hard part", not laborious part. The hardest part of the whole process to me has seemed to get the two bars perfectly aligned and the adjusting hardware drilled and tapped precisely. I found a local shop whose foreman was intrigued by the project and agreed as long as I didn't push them to complete the job. It took about six months with him putting a guy on it when there was some down time, but when they were done, I had two sets of roughing forms 4 feet long and two sets of finishing forms 7 feet long for about $500 including materials, which included 1" square bar stock. These puppies are beefy (almost 50 pounds when finished). After they were done, the shop foreman wisely said, "Never again." I had pre-sold one pair of forms to another maker for $400, so I got my pair for $100. All I had to do was to true the tops and file the grooves. I spent more time trying to invent an adjustable grooving jig than my buddy spent filing his forms. I got sidetracked, but he finished his and they work phenomenally well. I could never have gotten the dowel pins in so perfectly, or even gotten the bars so carefully aligned, so I'm real glad I paid an expert to do this demanding work. Now comes all the drudgery. I used a belt sander to level the roughing form since no great degree of accuracy is needed there, and that went quickly. I found that a brand new 10" Nicholson bastard cut mill file had the proper tooth for the job of leveling the finishing forms, and I am only cutting in one direction, without lubricant. A quality file will cut well for a long time. Both sides are almost leveled, then I plan to clean them up with an 8" second cut mill file, although they are pretty smooth as is. I plan on using a 60º thread cutting tool that is micro adjustable and held in alignment by spring loaded 60º points at either end of the grooving jig to keep the cutter working evenly. I will cut the groove so that when the small end is on the left (I'm a righty) the shoulder bolt heads will be on the opposite side. This will stop me from jamming my thumb into them in use. It will also place the set screws on the side I am working on and give me something to visualize on the "blind" side of the forms when I am setting the taper and have to locate the hole for the hex key. When the groove is close to depth, I will switch to a three-cornered file and finally, I will lap the grooves with a three-cornered ruby dressing stone and kerosene. |
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JimmyB11 |
#39 | |||
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After reading all of this and after making 4 sets of forms in a machine shop my advice to anyone thinking about doing this is to a) spend the money on decent
forms or b) find a second hand set. It is so much work with no guarantee that the forms will be decent. The whole draw filing thing is scary. Spend your time
and effort on a more fruitful rod building adventure.
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Battenkiller |
#40 | |||
JimmyB11 wrote:It was seeing three different sets of commercially available forms that made me and a friend decide we could do better ourselves. Lots of little annoyances and a few really bad mistakes in the ones he had before. As I said before, I subcontracted the drilling and tapping. I have completed the scary draw filing thing without a hitch. I have cut the grooves for the roughing form with a 60º thread cutting lathe tool as recommended and it worked great. Now all I have to do is to cut the final two tapers on the finishing form and I've saved myself $900 and I have forms made of 1" square stock that are a full 7' long. What seemed impossible when I first read about it was just a lot of work and some very sore thumbs. The money I saved is more than a bale of cane and all the parts I will need for about a dozen rods, plus a really nice Mitutoyo 2904S dial indicator. I will have enough for a large blowtorch and the parts for a beveler if I ever go that way. Maybe even enough left over for a binder and a rod wrapper. But most of all, it was a really fun project for me that left me with a very satisfying sense of accomplishment. Now, the question is whether or not to go with .005 or .006" spacing between the bars. .006" will give me pretty close to the standard Garrison slope of .001"/inch while going to a .005" spacing will give me a slope about 15% less steep. Is there any advantage to a slower rise (i.e. making the straight sections in the regressive butt tapers of many of the Young designs)? Any disadvantages? |
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