Does anyone have any ideas on how to go about adjusting a published taper that was "smoothed out" to use swiss ferrules back to using step downs(IE
Paynes and Dickersons and the like)? I have been messing around with a few different programs but no matter what I try I always wind up with a bit of a soft
spot in the stress curve right up to the male. Should I go higher up the blank in my adjusting to accomodate the smaller ferrule or do most tapers deigned for
step downs spike before the ferrule(reading the curve from the tip)? I have no problem experimenting to some degree but I figured it would be worth asking for
other folks opinions first so I don't waste more cane than I need to.
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Adjusting a taper back to step down ferrules?
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 jasonklett |
Adjusting a taper back to step down ferrules? |
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Posts: 44 04/29/2009 23:00 |
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Blue Quill |
#1 | |||
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Posts: 145 04/29/2009 23:39 |
Hi Jasonklett,
I don't see how it can be done. Some people smoothed them out as an average within 5-inches either side of the ferrule, some did it mathematically over a greater distance, and some just kept the taper as-is and built-up the tip with strips of bamboo to fit the male ferrule. Net: There's no way to tell if you are starting where you should, let alone where you need to go. You might be able to convert a given taper to a stepped-ferrule taper, but there is no way to be sure if what you end up with was where it originally started. Chuck |
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PA Limestoner |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 90 04/30/2009 09:43 |
Jasonklett, try to graph the taper the last ten inches on each side of the ferrule. Many old makers kept the taper relatively flat here so that different
length rods could use the same ferrule. See how the direction of the graph would go without the drop/rise into the ferrule. If the difference measures out to
20 to 30 thousands, you are in luck with ferrrules. Years ago Bailey Wood suggested to me for a real Payne 101 taper to use his 14/64 Step down female for the
butt section, in conjunction with his 12/64 Swiss males. The two fit together nicely with a little dressing of the male slides. Use the regular length, not the
truncated. I have helped four newcomers to rodmaking, and the Payne 101 is a perfect taper to start with. The 2/64 drop can be accommodated also by 10/12,
11/13, 13/15, etc.
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Blue Quill |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 146 04/30/2009 20:10 |
Hi PA,
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jasonklett |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 45 05/01/2009 22:28 |
Thanks guys, I sort of figured I was trying to do something that couldn't really be done by reversing someone's work. I did some searching and I will
do some more but I found a set of numbers from the before and after of someone removing a step. I have to find some more examples to prove it to myself, but
looking at the one I found it seems that I may have been going the wrong way by reducing the tip. For this particular taper the original was 13/64" on the
tip and 14/64" on the butt whereas the tweaked version was 13/64" on both.
I am not necessarily trying to duplicate a classic, I am trying to see how the ferrules affect action. I am constantly hearing that "X taper needs the step" or "Y is better with SS" and I would like to understand what they mean. My end goal is to understand enough to be able to design my own tapers rather than just copying the classics. Thanks again for the help. |
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rlnunleycom |
#5 | |||
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Posts: 516 05/02/2009 10:20 |
The easy way, of course, is to stick a micrometer on the original rods and figure out what the dimensions REALLY are, but there is an acceptable alternative.
Get some graph paper and grap the TIP alone. On your graph, you can see where the dimension was "massaged" to make a smooth transition over what
should be a step down (or up giong tip to butt) in dimension. Smooth out those number so match the same rate of slope of taper on the previous 10 inches of
the large end of the tip. What you SHOULD end up with in most popular rods (Payne, Leonard, Dickerson, etc) is a distinct stepdown of between 0.008" and
0.158, a little over 1/64th. Personally, I like stepped down tapers and I have not yet found a "straight through the ferrule" taper that casts worth
a $#%. If you run into a snag on a particular taper and aren't sure what to do, just email me. I have a pretty thorough collection of the Hudson
Valley/Catskills tapers, all of which were stepdown.
Bob |
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J W Foster |
#6 | |||
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Posts: 44 05/02/2009 16:03 |
Well Hello St. Nunley
"I have not yet found a "straight through the ferrule" taper that casts worth a $#%." Gosh, Really...since you just sweepingly condemned all other types of rods to the trash bin.. I will now grant you the new and improved "The Nunley $#% Award." Regards Jerry
Last Edited By: J W Foster 05/07/2009 08:58.
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J W Foster |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 45 05/02/2009 16:09 |
Oh, and by the way..for those of you who can't find your graph paper. If you enter the rod as 2 onepiece rods in any of the taper programs you will get the
same results as Mr. Nunley suggests.
Regards Jerry |
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oneculm |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 541 05/02/2009 16:41 |
Jerry I also am a little confused . I have been using super Z type ferrules for a long time as I would estimate hundreds of other builders past and present..I
measured the ID of the both the male and matching female that goes on the bamboo and low and behold they are the same. This was on ferrules from four different
manufactures. I would think that in order to get a good fit this would be called a straight thru taper but I could be wrong.
Last Edited By: oneculm 05/02/2009 19:18.
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Blue Quill |
#9 | |||
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Posts: 161 05/02/2009 20:01 |
Hi Oneculm,
I use Super-Z ferrules also, and they are the same ID on the male and female. The "Step-Down" ferrules these guys are talking about have a different ID for the male and the female. At the ferrule on most Payne's and pre-fire Leonards, the tip dimension is much smaller than the butt dimension (sometimes more than .015 / a whole ferrule-size different), so they need special ferrule ID's to allow each section to fit the ferrule. It would be like trying to connect a tip that fits a #12 Super-Z to a butt that fits a #13 Super-Z; you would need a #13 ferrule with a special / smaller ID on the male so they can be connected. This is how "step-down" ferrules work, only they also are shoulder-design ferrules (like Payne and Leonard ferrules) which further confuses the issue. I have used "step-down" ferrules to repair vintage rods, but I only use Super-Z ferrules for the rods I make. I occasionally use "shouldered" ferrules if a customer wants a vintage look, but like Super-Z ferrules these have matching ID's. I would never build a new rod using a true (different ID male/female) step-down ferrule. I'm sure there are great arguments for them but I don't like them. Chuck |
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john channer |
#10 | |||
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Posts: 746 05/03/2009 08:59 |
I use the dimension graph feature of the online Hexrod to see what the shape of the rod is. Rods that have had the ferrule area smoothed over generally show it
in the dimension graph, you'll see where the curve of the taper has been altered going into and coming out of the ferrule, its fairly easy to follow that
line and wind up where it should be. A graph of the taper (NOT stress curves!!) will show a solid line thru the ferrule, the actual taper of a rod with a drop
over the ferrule should show a disconnected line with the butt measurement larger than the tip. A compromise between smoothing out the ferrule area would be to
use the correct size swiss ferrule that fits the butt when it's turned full round, then on the tip side you basically are just taking the corners off, use
epoxy and it wil hold up, for 10 years anyway as that's how long I've had rods with ferrules done this way.
john |
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rlnunleycom |
Thanks, Jerry! | #11 | ||
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Posts: 517 05/04/2009 20:44 |
J W Foster wrote:Jerry I really appreciate my promotion to Saint Hood! You have no idea how much it means to me to take the place of those that condemn proven things like cutting bamboo with precision saw blades or who think your rod wrapper or dip tube isn't sufficient unless it's CNC'd... "Largest Ego Nunley $#% Award"???? Well, I guess if in having made in excess of 700 rods, restored a couple of hundred or more, assembling a barrell full of composite rods and working in the fly fishing industry as a rodmaker and in other capacities for the past 21 years gives me a large ego, then I'll humbly accept your criticism and this Largest Ego award... you won't miss it will you, Jerry? As for my post, I was posting MY opinion, and in MY opinion, rods that were developed originally with Step Downs in dimensions engineered into them, are my favorite kind of rods. I don't like "straight through" rods. I like more of a Catskills type of rod (well, actually Hudson Valley type rods since the larger shops of the "Catskills" makers were actually in the Hudson Valley). I hope that my opinion isn't taken by anyone with any bit of common sense to mean that I think all rods that aren't of the Catskill or Dickerson style (step down) are junk and belong in the trash bin. Only the narrow minded, I think, would believe that's what I meant. But... just so I'm perfectly clear I (I meaning ME, BOB, ROBERT, RL NUNLEY, GRIZ, COB or any one of many other nicknames I've had over the years) don't like the way "non step down" rods cast. That does NOT mean that I condemn them to the trash bin, it means that I don't like them for me, for my style of fishing and for my style of casting. I have a friend that HATES stepdown rods. He thinks they're worthess for fishing, but he's still my friend and I don't think he's an Egotisitical $#% because he doesn't like them. The rods he prefers are Parabolic... which I also dislike... Shouldn't have said that... I guess now I'll be the ENORMOUS EGO NUNLEY $#% AWARD winner since I don't like Parabolics. Hope this doesn't get me promoted also to a deity! I'm having a hard enough time dealing with being a Saint!!! I hope that's more clear and I sincerely apologize for expecting you to be able read between the lines. Henceforth I shall, in my saintly manner, insure that all of my posts are clear, concise and contain that my thoughts are My Humble Opinion Only. Kindest Regards, St Nunley... or maybe we should use my middle name... Louis... doesn't St Louis sound better... nah, that's already taken. Lets just use BOB... I like that better. Post Script: One on a more serious note. You know, most of us really enjoy visiting and participating within this forum. We ease in little bits of humor, friendly jabs at each other, many of us are friends on this board, as well as off, but sometimes, things get just a little too serious. Thus, in the post above, I tried to make a humorous reply to what one person who contacted me about this post considered arrogant and insulting. Gentlemen, there are two guys on this board right now that are going through a pretty tough time. One of member's of this wonderful board has a wife that is battling breast cancer for the second time and just had a double mastecomy less than three weeks ago. He comes to this board to get a little relaxation at the end of the day, splitting his time between his craft and caring for his wife, and to share a little of what he's learned over the years, yet sometimes has to read trivial BS that sounds like First Graders on the playground saying "my Daddy's bigger than your Daddy". Another board member found out last week that his mother was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. Same with him. He's a great man and a great rodmaker with a wealth of knowledge that he willingly shares, yet sometimes the precious time he tries to enjoy in this little haven for rodmakers is wasted with the kind of thing to which this particular tread was temporarily degraded. The kind of thing these two are going through is important and having a huge impact on these two rodmakers lives right now. Petty jabs at other people are not what these guys get on here to read. Think about that next time you feel like you have to insult or degrade someone on this great gathering place for rodmakers and rod enthusiasts.
Last Edited By: rlnunleycom 05/05/2009 08:30.
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J W Foster |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 46 05/05/2009 23:15 |
Thank you for responding Bob
I will accept that with all the humility in which it was offered. Regards Jerry |
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Jim Lowe |
#13 | |||
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Posts: 542 05/06/2009 16:00 |
Bob,
What effect does the step down have on the taper that you like so much. Why do you think it makes a better rod? What about those taper that appear to have a "reverse drop" after the ferrule, how does that figure into your preference. My guess would be it's the design of the rod itself around the drop and not the simple drop itself that you like. That is the way the makers changed the taper to suit the ferrules they had. Or is it the existance of the drop itself. I've heard that some mixed and matched butts and tips until they got something they like so the use of a step down ferrule would be necessary but the resulting taper not necessarily designed around it. Thanks. |
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rlnunleycom |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 518 05/07/2009 02:14 |
Jim,
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J W Foster |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 47 05/07/2009 09:08 |
Hi Bob
I would like to apologize for my remarks, I re-read what I said and where I just wanted to to tweak you a little I ended up insulting you. That was not my intention. I, and others, do hold you in esteem for what you have given to the the craft. I have edited the previous post to read more, "Tongue in cheek," as I intended. Everything you said about me is however still true. 
Regards Jerry |
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rlnunleycom |
#16 | |||
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Posts: 519 05/07/2009 20:26 |
Jerry,
You and I have known each other through the internet, the early days (I mean REALLY early days) of the rodmakers listserve and through telephone conversations. I CONSIDER YOU A FRIEND and was laughing both when I read the post and wrote the reply. We will remain friends and you can take a jab at me anytime you want! BTW, after making fun of you for it, I have a Stepper motor ready to hook up to a circuit board for my dipping operation! If it works, I'm going to get two more each and run three dip tubes at the same time. Sure would save me some late nights at the shop. You were the first one to bring up using a stepper motor (which for those of you that don't know, a stepper motor is the same motor you use for CNC operated machinery). I also remember calling you and you spending a good two hours on the phone with me talking about 2 axis programs and how to CNC a miller or beveller. Those things DEFINITELY overshadow any times that you "tweak me a little". 
And thanks for your contributions to the craft. There have been MANY. A lot more than the people on this forum will ever know. My best, Bob |
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jasonklett |
#17 | |||
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Posts: 46 05/07/2009 22:54 |
I am somewhat confused. The only ferrules that I've seen that have the same ID at the tabs were swiss style and super SD's. The stepdowns I'm
talking about are indeed 1/64" smaller where the cane goes into the male with the ID of the slide being 2/64" smaller than that of the female. Maybe
the terminology I'm using is off and what I think are stepdowns are really something else. I really want to learn and if I got this wrong then please
correct me.
Bob, that description on what the step does to the action is exactly what I needed. It helps me understand more about how ferrule choice changes the character of a taper. Thanks again everyone, this is a really informative discussion. |
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rlnunleycom |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 520 05/08/2009 08:29 |
Jason,
"Step Down" is really a much too broadly used term to call ferrules. It's used to describe the ferrules that a lot of contemporary makers use as being a ferrule where the tab female body is the same dimension as the male body (that happens a lot here in Arkansas too  ) and the male slide is smaller by 1/32nd. That is the "step
down"... the step down in dimension of the inside diamter of the male slide portion of the ferrule. Now, there are also what many call TRUE stepdowns,
where the inside diameter of the main body of the Male ferrule is actually 1/64th smaller than the inside diameter of the female barrell. Now, with these
the step down on the bamboo is only 1/64th instead of 1/32nd. That difference worries a lot of people, and I can see their point of view in worrying, but it
doesn't bother me a bit. That bamboo is surrounded at the ferrules by a relatively super tough piece of nickel silver I use the style of step down
mentioned first in this post and don't worry about how much bamboo I have to remove. I always fit the female ferrule to the butt section, then round off
only the corners to fit the male to the tip section. I lose no strength that way (in the bamboo, and again, in my opinion). With the rods I make, most of my
tapers are moderate stepdowns. The largest stepdown I use is generally about .012" difference between the tip end of the butt and the but end of the tip.
That's a little less than 0.77/64ths. Not really enough if you fit the ferrule well to the butt that you have to use smaller tubing on the tip. You can
look at rods and tell by the ferrule wraps, generally, if they are step downs using the style ferrles I use. The one that use a smaller male body... well
it's harder to tell on those without measureing, but if you look closely, you can see the definitely step in the ferrule tubing itself, then again in the
bamboo.
Well, I hope I didn't muddy the waters up too much... Bob. |
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jasonklett |
#19 | |||
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Posts: 47 05/08/2009 23:36 |
OK, that sort of makes sense to me. So if the bamboo is 1/64" smaller on the tip side then it would be a true stepdown whereas if the dimensions are
closer than that it would be a modern stepdown? I take it that if the female is a consistent ID on both ends then it would be called a stepdown regardless of
the tab ID on the male?
If that's the case then how would using a swiss style ferrule change the action if the modern stepdown has the same size bamboo going in? Is it the overall length of the metal that changes it(the stepdowns being longer) or is it something to do with the thinner profile of the female? You didn't muddy things up more than I already have when I first started thinking about this. I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to over analyzing stuff. I can't leave well enough alone. |
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mattcliff |
Clear, not muddy | #20 | ||
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Posts: 108 05/14/2009 11:38 |
Just wanted to say thanks to Bob for clearing up what is one of the major sources of confusion and mis-information for people new to rod-making -- i.e., the
definition of "step-down" ferrules. So many people always assume that step-down means that the hole for the bamboo on the male side must be 1/64
smaller than the hole for the bamboo on the female side. Such ferrules exist, of course, but they're not what decent rodmakers have ever used in most
cases.
It's always struck me as odd that while ferrules are really not that complicated, for some reason they are hard to describe in writing. My own experience has likewise been that step-down tapers cast better. You could also add that the ferrules look a lot nicer.
Last Edited By: mattcliff 05/14/2009 11:43.
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