The rod in question appears not to fit the weight specs of one of the numbered rods, so it might be different in other ways, including period of fabrication.
Even if a rod were sold post-1931, might it not have been made pre-1931? Were all the "Autograph" rods made after 1931? Or sold after 1931? I
wonder if some fall into that category of rods made during the Mt. Carmel era and sold during the Bristol period. If there were a "substantial"
number of such rods, where did they go? Is there any hope of identifying them?
This forum began as Clark's Classic Bamboo Rod Forum, founded by Clark Davis for all who share a passion for classic rods. The forum is now owned by Whitefish Press aka Dr. Todd Larson - banjo.
For those who don't use English as their primary language we now have a translator for your language of choice hosted by Google.
0 Kudo
- Members Corner
- Forum Announcements
- Collecting Bamboo Fly Rods
- Fishing Bamboo Fly Rods
- Rod making, restoration, repairs and discussion on those related topics concerning bamboo rods.
- Rod and Reel Makers Forum
- Information About Makers & Manufacturers
- Taper Exchange
- Appraisals & Identification of Bamboo Fly Rods
- Ephemera, empherma and Ephemerella.....
- Book Talk
- Photos, paintings, written stories and talents.
- Classic Reels
- Collecting and Tying Classic Flies
- The Cooks Kitchen
- The Classic Fly Rod Classifieds
- Technical Support
Need help with an Edwards rod
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 RPL |
#21 | |||
|
Posts: 191 04/23/2009 21:24 |
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
pcg |
#22 | |||
|
Posts: 2666 04/24/2009 08:01 Admin |
RPL, sorry, but you're confusing history here. Identification is not an issue. All the numbered & "Autograph" rods were made after EW's
death. There really no question about that at this point. although it seemed confusing as recently as a year or two ago. As I've noted before, recent
catalogs pin down the dates w/o question. Rod weights as advertised are notoriously inaccurate, and do not include the weight of the reelseat; the reelseats
varied in weight from year to year, so the makers all just weighed the built rod before the seat was attached.
The "Autograph" label came about after EW's death because his signature was marketed by the firm as what differentiated his rods from similar ones by Winchester. His ads referenced (& trumpeted) buyer assurance by his signature under "the varnish." This is documented in Playing With Fire. Outside of trade rods, the only rods made in Mt Carmel were the De Luxe, the De Luxe Tournament, the Mt Carmel and the Special. So for the sake of clarity, let me repeat--the confusing numbered rods & the "Autograph" rods were inventions of the 1932-1938 Bristol era after Eustis' death. Pat |
|||
|
|
||||
|
RPL |
#23 | |||
|
Posts: 192 04/24/2009 08:58 |
Again, just because a rod was sold after 1931 doesn't mean it wasn't made prior to 1931. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "identification
is not an issue." Seems to be a central question here. How do we identify the rods made by E.W. Edwards during his Mt. Carmel period that conveyed to
the Bristol Co. after he died?
I don't know that marketing rods as genuine Edwards rod based on their being autographed by a dead person reassured the fly fishing community, such as it is. Putting aside questions of truth in advertising, however, I was just wondering if the Bristol Company made an attempt to differentiate the Edwards rods that conveyed to Bristol. Or whether they were just indiscriminately mixed with newly made rods at Bristol. Many of those rods could have just sat around the shop for years, which was not uncommon then, prior to someone finally inscribing them as they went out the door. In the case of the rod in question, that scenario might be a possibility, though, as I have repeatedly stated, unlikely. The rod in question raises interesting questions. I don't have my library at hand right now, but the questions might deserve a good delve or two.
Last Edited By: RPL 04/24/2009 09:09.
Edited 2 times.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
pcg |
#24 | |||
|
Posts: 2671 04/24/2009 09:16 Admin |
Reread page 164 in PWF. You'll note that the inventory sold to Horton consisted of 130 rods total.
Although documents don't note the exact number for each model in the inventory, the rods consisted of De Luxe rods, a "Tournament" rod, Mt Carmels, a "California saltwater rod" and Specials. I haven't been able to pin down the saltwater rod but it probably was one made for A&I. The addition of "Autograph" following the written "EW Edwards" differentiated the rods made after his death. In other words, the Autograph rod simply became a model designation, no different than a Ford car made after Henry Ford's death. Note also that there are NO known Autograph rods signed personally by Edwards. And of course there would not be, as any rod he personally signed in effect carried his personal autograph. The signature, EW Edwards, sufficed. There are no questions of "truth in advertising" that I can imagine. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
RPL |
#25 | |||
|
Posts: 193 04/25/2009 07:58 |
And so what happened to the these "130" rods? I would guess that they might have shown up in Horton tubes over the ensuing years and that we have
not been able to identify them. They are the lost Edwards.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
pcg |
#26 | |||
|
Posts: 2678 04/25/2009 09:03 Admin |
If a rod were identified only by its tube, I suppose one could suggest there were "lost" Edwards rods. But most of us identify a rod by the rod. And
many of the Bristol era Edwards did change in appearance. Handwriting on the post-1932 rods changed--radically in some cases (see Appendix D in PWF), node
placement lost precision, butt caps were stamped "Bristol, Conn." rather than "Mt Carmel," ferrules were more frequently welted, and
reelseats particularly went low end. As we've noted in the forum over & over, the mix of components added to rods between 1932 and 1938 was often
bizarre and unfortunate.
Show me 25 Mt Carmel and 25 Bristol era rods inside 50 Bristol labeled tubes, and I'll do a darned good job of separating one era from another. Let's not create mysteries and problems where are there are none. There are enough legitimate mysteries in the tackle field, IMHO, without inventing new ones. Rods are frequently found inside tubes (and bags) that are mismatched. As examples, I own a 1926-27 Edwards Perfection that came in a late Bristol tube. There's also a 1948 Gene Edwards DeLuxe in my collection--a stunning rod--that arrived in an old Mt Carmel tube. Perhaps I should be more skeptical, but I admit that it never crossed my mind that I should date the rods based on the tubes. Pat |
|||
|
|
||||
|
PaducahMichael |
The "Lost"Edwards Rods | #27 | ||
|
Posts: 604 04/25/2009 12:08 |
RPL wrote: RPL, I've devoted a lot of time to tracking down these 130 rods. Here's the best I could come up with: 13 rods were given to company brass as part of the purchase agreement. That left 117 rods. 36 rods were sold to a sporting goods store in Philadelphia. The sales receipts were lost in a fire in 1947 and I have been unable to track down the eventual buyers. That left 81 rods. 42 rods were sold through the catalog. No records were kept, although there were six men who felt they were over-charged for "shipping & handling." One rod was broken in shipment, never went fishing and was used as a curtain rod by a little old lady in Pascagoula. As far as I know, it still serves that purpose. That left 39 rods. Of the 39 remaining rods, 17 were given to company employees at Christmas, 1939. The employees called the bosses "cheap bastards" and made comments like "Oh sure - just what I needed - another damned fishing rod." Rumor has it that these 17 employees burned the rods (and mislabeled tubes) in a large bonfire at the Spring Solstice, and danced naked around the fire". (Hence the title, "Playing with Fire". Two were so drunk they fell into the fire and suffered third degree burns over 72% of their bodies.) That left 22 rods. 12 rods were bought by a feed store that sidelined in the fishing tackle business in a small town just outside Oslo, Norway. Those darn Norsemen are still out there trying to spear fish with the rods. They used the tubes (which didn't match the rods) to make those big, long horns you always see them blowing. That left 10 rods. 8 rods were donated to a charitable organization for auction at their annual fundraiser. 2 of the rods were stolen by the chairman of the fund-raising committee who gave them to his sons as gifts. By the time this was discovered, the chairman had passed away having suffered a severe attack of heartburn from eating too much of the donated food. (They're pretty sure it was actually the chili dip that got him. That shit was hot!) Of the six rods that were sold, one went to a fellow who locked it in his gunsafe as an investment, the remaining five were bought by a Doctor, three Lawyers and an Orthodontist from Poughkeepsie. None of them can fish a lick, but they all look like Orvis models when they picnic near the stream to give the impression that they are, indeed, "flyfishers". When last observed, the lawyers were streamside with a mirror, practicing their "Brad Pitt Smiles" and congratulating each other for "looking good". That left 2 rods. The last two rods were stored in the supply room. There they remained, forlorn and forgotten for sixty years. When the building was condemned and the company folded, a janitor on the cleaning crew found the rods. He tied a long string to the tip-top of one rod and used it for crappie fishing. He said it wasn't worth a damn as a crappie rod, but it sure was pretty. Or at least it was pretty until it rode around in the bed of his pickup (assembled) and something snapped the tip off about a foot and a half short. But the resourceful janitor just tied his string on the snake guide nearest the tip and finally proclaimed it a "perfect" crappie rod. The last rod, the one the janitor had not used, was still in his possession at the time of his death when his son, a PETA activist with a fondness for "Sea Kittens" discovered it. Horrified at the thought of this instrument of torture remaining in his home where his partner might discover it and think him insensitive, the son sold the last Edwards on eBay in a no reserve auction starting at 99 cents to ensure its rapid sale. He listed it as an "old fish pole". A sharp eyed member of the Fly Rod Forum saw the rod, bid high and won it. The seller promptly donated the proceeds to PETA, which made his partner "oh so happy". The buyer of the last Edwards received the rod in good order, but was disappointed to find it was in the wrong tube. Is this true? Well, if it's not - it ought to be.
Last Edited By: PaducahMichael 04/25/2009 12:21.
Edited 2 times.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
pcg |
#28 | |||
|
Posts: 2683 04/25/2009 12:08 Admin |
Michael, I hereby nominate your post for the award given annually for the Funniest Post By A Member, the extraordinarily desirable FPBAM
(or BAM for short).
Of course the greatest humor always has at its core an indisputable truth. Sounds like you've handled a few rods in your time. 
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
rckdr |
#29 | |||
|
Posts: 51 04/26/2009 07:29 |
If trout are sea kittens then PETA members must be sea monkeys.
Just out of curiosity, was the Mt. Carmel model designation used after the move to Bristol? The reason I ask is that there is a rod on the West Slope website that says Mt. Carmel on the shaft. It has identical handwriting to that on my rod, the pattern of the wraps is identical except that red was used instead of brown, and the reel seat hardware is identical except that there is no rubber grip check. I know that handwriting cannot date a rod unless it is definitely Eustis' signature which this is not. Just curious since I haven't gotten my copy of the book yet.
Last Edited By: rckdr 04/26/2009 07:33.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
pcg |
#30 | |||
|
Posts: 2691 04/26/2009 07:51 Admin |
The three standard models, including the Mt. Carmel (w/ a metal reelseat), continued being made by Horton. The difficulty w/ the Mt. Carmel model is that
it's reelseat butt was never marked w/ ID, whereas the other two better models were stamped either Mt. Carmel, Conn., or Bristol, Conn.
The Mt Carmel was the low end model. For instance, it cost 50% less than the De Luxe model, and 29% less than the Special. Unfortunately, the Edwards catalog does not describe the color of the wraps, so we can't make assumptions based on wrap color. I've never seen a Mt. Carmel model signed by Eustis, and it's unlikely that he ever had a hand in making these, given their lowly status. One of the boys would have overseen their making, and given that the boys continued the model after Horton's purchase of the firm, the Mt. Carmel model varied little if at all in appearance between 1928 and 1938. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
PaducahMichael |
#31 | |||
|
Posts: 626 05/02/2009 19:16 |
I was looking again at the photos of the rod in question - anyone know what kind of wood was used for that spacer? Looks familiar, but I can't figure what
it is.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
pcg |
#32 | |||
|
Posts: 2736 05/02/2009 20:34 Admin |
Michael, I just looked at the Edwards catalog (only one that exists, to my knowledge)--no description of the wood in any of the rod descriptions.
Pat |
|||
|
|
||||
|
RPL |
#33 | |||
|
Posts: 195 05/15/2009 15:52 |
pcg wrote:FYI - I came across this very nice Mt. Carmel with a Bristol stamping on the butt cap. When it comes to Edwards, never say never? 
|
|||
|
|
||||
 NorthBranch |
#34 | |||
|
Posts: 208 05/15/2009 16:18 |
Agreed on "never say never"...especially with Eustis rods as there are so few, but I think Patrick was ultimatly right on this thread. A week after
this thread ended, a board member sold a beautiful 9' EW Autograph just like the one in the beginning of this and the rod had a Bristol stamp on it.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
RPL |
#35 | |||
|
Posts: 196 05/15/2009 16:57 |
Northbranch: Interesting. I guess the question of the Autograph rods still makes me wonder whether the Bristol-period Autograph rods and the 130 rods that
conveyed to Horton from the Edwards production at Mt. Carmel are one and the same. Patrick's conclusion that the Autographs did not appear until the
Bristol period certainly does not contradict that possibility. (Nor does PaducahMichael's explanations, which, BTW, I've forwarded to Saturday Night
Live along with his contact information.) The quality of the few Autograph rods I've seen is striking, as reflected in your comment about the 9 ft.
Edwards Autograph that recently changed hands on the Forum. I wonder how many of these rods are around. Seems like a ballpark estimate of 130 is not
unreasonable. Any thoughts?
Looking over the numbers in Patrick's book, it would appear that 130 rods probably represents more than 10 percent of total production at Mt. Carmel over its entire multi-year history, so those rods are indeed significant in numbers. I've read that the total number of Granger Registered rods come to about 400, and the Registered's seem to show up more often than do the Edwards Autograph. Both are scarce, with the Registered's a bit more coveted and high profile. They are also more recently made, which is another reasons to expect to see them more frequently. So I wonder if the number of Autograph rods does come to about 130. Seems plausible. There's probably no way to tell and this discussion is just conjecture, but intriguing nonetheless.
Last Edited By: RPL 05/15/2009 17:02.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
pcg |
#36 | |||
|
Posts: 2809 05/15/2009 21:39 Admin |
Hm, the conjecture that just won't go away.
As I noted in this thread on 4/24, "Although documents don't note the exact number for each model in the inventory, the rods consisted of De Luxe rods, a "Tournament" rod, Mt Carmels, a "California saltwater rod" and Specials. I haven't been able to pin down the saltwater rod but it probably was one made for A&I. The addition of "Autograph" following the written "EW Edwards" differentiated the rods made after his death." Please note that there were NO Autograph rods in those 130 rods. None. Also, I own the only known Edwards catalog (the catalog is circa 1933), which is a photocopy without change by Horton of the Edwards 1930 catalog: There are no Autograph rods listed. So all the Autograph models are post-1933. This is also, as I've previously noted, corroborated by the signatures: There are no Autograph rods that are signed by EW Edwards himself. I too love mysteries, but there's nothing here that justifies continuing the speculation. Autograph models are post-1933 Bristol manufacture. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
gooseberryrods |
#37 | |||
|
Posts: 617 05/15/2009 22:21 |
A few years ago I bought a 9', 2/2, EW Edwards Deluxe which had the Horton tube. I could not tell it from a Mt. Carmel rod except the tube was
representative of an early Bristol era rod. I assumed the rod was built during the transition period. Pat, in your opinion, was this a rod built by Edwards
while at Mt. Carmel?. The format of 9' and 2/2 is very rare from that period and I have always wondered if it was a special order. I am pretty sure the
script was from the hand of Eustis.
Scott |
|||
|
|
||||
|
RPL |
#38 | |||
|
Posts: 197 05/15/2009 23:17 |
Patrick -- I don't mean to be overly persistent or obtrusive about this point. Not trying to create mysteries. Just trying to get to the bottom of an
interesting question. There are a number of possible scenarios here. All the rods in question were not necessarily inscribed and ready for sale when bought
by Bristol, although they were inventoried as you note as De Luxe, Tournament and other models. Some may have gone out the door as Bristol rods to meet
immediate orders. The Bristol company, however, did know their value. At $50 per rod (total value $6500), their retail value may have exceeded what Bristol
paid for Edwards' company. It's possible that the Edwards/Horton managers might have held on to most of them until they had a suitable marketing plan.
Maybe the Autograph model was part of that plan. I know that scenario is a bit of a stretch, but the use of the word "autograph" suggests just such
a link with Eustis Edwards. In addition, that marketing ploy would have made good business sense. How many Autograph models did Horton sell? I would not be
surprised if the number came to about 100, which is also consistent with the number of these Mt. Carmel rods.
Since the catalog you have is a copy of a 1930 document, the Autograph model would, of course, not be in it. In any event, you might want to use caution when relying on a catalog from 1930 that may have been copied but not circulated widely. A 1930 Edwards catalog, as precious a document as it might be, might not be a definitive guide to the full line of Edwards/Horton rods after the acquisition. The fact that there are no other copies might suggest that Edwards/Horton did not use that catalog. Since Horton had considerably more advertising reach than most rod builders, a catalog they circulated should be around even today. What's your assessment of the Autograph rods themselves? They do appear to be of a much higher quality than other Bristol rods. Do you think that the Edwards brothers made them under Bristol? I've never examined one, but the pictures I've seen convey the impression of a very high grade rod. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
pcg |
#39 | |||
|
Posts: 2812 05/16/2009 15:18 Admin |
Scott, sure is possible. Horton purchased the remaining inventory of existing rods, and may have wanted to "brand" the tubes w/ their own name. Makes
sense.
RPL, the Autograph rods were finely made instruments. Even post-1932 when Horton ran the show, the same rodmakers, with the obvious exception of EWE, made the rods as before. The top of the line models remained the De Luxe, Specials, etc., and included the newer Autograph. But unlike during the Mt. Carmel years, during the Horton period the rods varied tremendously in quality. Many of the better rods were indistinguishable from those made earlier. But the lower quality rods (particularly most of the "F" series) were markedly lower in quality. Bristol rods went out of the shop that EW would never have approved. The importance of the 1930/1933 catalog is that it is the only known catalog that definitively illustrates what rods Edwards offered in 1930. It was also used by Horton with a new cover in 1933 for initial rod sales. Later Horton catalogs are not uncommon--for instance, I have an illustration from the 1940 catalog in PWF. My point in discussing the 1930/1933 catalog here is simply to underline, again, that the Autograph rods were post-1933 creations. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
rckdr |
#40 | |||
|
Posts: 53 05/20/2009 22:50 |
In response to Michael's earlier question, I think the reel seat spacer on my rod is English Walnut which is usually lighter and more yellowish tan
compared to American black walnut.
In reviewing the above arguments, I hope you are keeping in mind that this rod says both "Autograph" and "Deluxe" One big mystery for me is what their intentions and goals were in labelling these rods "Autograph". Perhaps with more research over the years we will find out. Maybe more catalogs will surface. |
|||
|
|
||||
- Members Corner
- Forum Announcements
- Collecting Bamboo Fly Rods
- Fishing Bamboo Fly Rods
- Rod making, restoration, repairs and discussion on those related topics concerning bamboo rods.
- Rod and Reel Makers Forum
- Information About Makers & Manufacturers
- Taper Exchange
- Appraisals & Identification of Bamboo Fly Rods
- Ephemera, empherma and Ephemerella.....
- Book Talk
- Photos, paintings, written stories and talents.
- Classic Reels
- Collecting and Tying Classic Flies
- The Cooks Kitchen
- The Classic Fly Rod Classifieds
- Technical Support
Quick Reply
The Orvis database by Greg Reynolds Finally available again!!
Check out the Paul Young Rod Co. database which is owned and maintained by member Robert Golder (quashnet).
Paul Young Rod Co. database by quashnet
DISCLAIMER:The views, and opinions, posted here are the sole responsibility of the poster. Negative comments, when directed at individuals, or other private concerns, will not be tolerated, posters should treat this media no differently than any other media source, in other words, if you would not submit what you are going to post in the newspaper, or a magazine, and sign your name as the author, kindly refrain from doing so here. The Classic Fly Rod Forum is not an open air forum for vendor/maker complaints. If you seek resolution, it is recommended you talk to the vendor/maker. If you seek an audience, it is recommended you go elsewhere. The admin and the Moderators reserve the right to remove any items deemed inappropriate according to the rules of conduct prominently displayed on each forum. If you have any questions or concerns you are free to email us at
send email to the Classic Fly Rod Forum
Posting to sell Domain names and the like, i.e. SPAM, is against YUKU Policy, if you post these types of posts here you will be banned from this board and YUKU will more than likely ban you from the site entirely. Thank you..........
The Fly Fishing Loop is sponsored by flydepot.com
[ Home Waters | Next | Random | List | Search ]
