w/f vs dt

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mikegsp	w/f vs dt		Lead	[-]
Posts: 17 05/28/2009 16:40	Tags : None Ok I need someone to clarify something. Is a wf4 equal to a dt5 or is that backwards ie: wf5=dt4. In the last few weeks I have been told both.Which is correct ?
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Greg Reynolds		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1960 05/28/2009 17:32 Orvis Database Founder	A WF5 line is close to a DT4.
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mer		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3071 05/28/2009 17:53	Not quite. How far are you casting? For a line to be called a "4 wt" the first 30 feet must weigh 120 grains 6 grains. This is regardless of taper. On a typical trout sized WF line (4/5/6wts) the total head length (front taper, belly, rear taper) is nominally 50 feet on a 90 foot line, give or take 5 feet. A WF line after the rear taper does not increase in weight appreciably (running line portion is typically very thin) while a DT will increase linearly in weight until the back taper, then it still increases, but not as fast. A typical 90 foot DT has a 1/2 foot tip, a 7.5 foot front taper, 74 feet of belly, then 7.5 feet back taper, then 1/2 foot tip. So a WF5 is "equal" to a DT4 only when you have a lot more of the DT4 out than the WF5. A 5wt line is 140 grains 6. If they are level lines, 35 feet of a 4 wt is the same weight as 30 feet of a 5wt. Lines that fall in between the weights are allowed to be called either, which gives you either a "heavy 4" or a "light 5". This signature left intentionally blank.
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bobbeegee		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2724 05/28/2009 18:01	mer wrote: Not quite. How far are you casting? For a line to be called a "4 wt" the first 30 feet must weigh 120 grains 6 grains. This is regardless of taper. On a typical trout sized WF line (4/5/6wts) the total head length (front taper, belly, rear taper) is nominally 50 feet on a 90 foot line, give or take 5 feet. A WF line after the rear taper does not increase in weight appreciably (running line portion is typically very thin) while a DT will increase linearly in weight until the back taper, then it still increases, but not as fast. A typical 90 foot DT has a 1/2 foot tip, a 7.5 foot front taper, 74 feet of belly, then 7.5 feet back taper, then 1/2 foot tip. So a WF5 is "equal" to a DT4 only when you have a lot more of the DT4 out than the WF5. A 5wt line is 140 grains 6. If they are level lines, 35 feet of a 4 wt is the same weight as 30 feet of a 5wt. Lines that fall in between the weights are allowed to be called either, which gives you either a "heavy 4" or a "light 5". Oh. Bob Go Heels!!!
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Greg Reynolds		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1963 05/28/2009 20:17 Orvis Database Founder	That's right...
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czkid		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4000 05/28/2009 20:40 Moderator	Most of us cast less than 50 ft......... nuff said??? The difference in "feel" between brands may well be greater than the difference between a DT and a WF. Ralph
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corlay.fiberglassflyro...		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 43 05/28/2009 21:07	the only time I'd ever consider a WF, is if I plan to make both short and (especially) long casts, and I want the rod to load well in-short, without becoming over-loaded out-long. Although identically weighted and tapered out to about 35'-40', the DT supasses the aerialized weight of a WF very quickly, as more line is cast. WF lines were designed for long casts. For me, the only conditions where this seems to be applicable, is warm-water bass/panfish fishing. I do use WF bass tapers for that. (on fiberglass rods) On a trout stream, as czkid has stated, my longest cast required might be 40'-50' tops, but most are in the 20'-40' range (or even less...) so I see no need for a WF there. In fact, given the identical properties at short range and the (almost) imperceptible differences at medium ranges, one should always opt for the double-taper for trout fishing, IMO. It's reversible - 2 lines for the price of one! One exception is plausible when considering the reel and weight balance of your outfit. A WF line takes-up a lot less space on a reel, so smaller diameter reels may be used; if trying to keep it light. Although, being a predominantly bamboo forum, most are probably trying to pair a reel that is heavy-enough to balance out with the rod well. But this may be a good justification for WF lines: Graphite. The graphite-era brought us really light rods, and also a markting push for longer casting ability. A WF line works well within that criteria.
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Ken M 44		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3067 05/29/2009 02:49 Immoderatus Britannicus	Corlay - that is about where I am. I always use DT lines and tend more toward slick finished lines if I need to shoot anything long and Sylk for closer work because I like the feel of them. Mer - correct and a big 'Welcome Back' Mike
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ttrotter		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1098 05/29/2009 07:33 Moderator	A word of caution here. If you don't weigh the first 30' of line yourself, you really have no idea what weight line you have. Both plastic and silk manufacturers' lines vary widely in stated weight. Sometimes you can think you're fishing a 5wt line and it really is a mid to heavy 4wt. This can have a huge impact on a particular rod's casting feel. If you've got a rod that just doesn't "sing" for you, it may well be the line and not the rod! My $.02 worth. Tom
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Eric Peper		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 265 05/29/2009 08:13	There is a tolerance range built into the numeric designations of IIRC about 4- 5%, so that front 30 feet of a 4 might be anywhere from 115-125 grains. More importantly than the weight, as far as casting behavior is concerned, is the same factor as in the rod; i.e., the taper design. Some lines may have a short front taper (first 8-10 feet) while others may be considerably longer, yet all will fall into the specified weight tolerance range. This obviouisly is why some rods "like" one line better than another. Just another fascinating, fun thing for us all to play with. EP
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riverfloggin		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 76 05/29/2009 09:38	Different varieties of WF fly line come with a wide range of "head" lengths.
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Flykuni2	The ooold discussion	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 67 05/29/2009 18:04	He's right, they're right -- there're allowable variances in that business. Just like with tippet materials. Some companies are known for mis-listing. As in the clothes business, too, where women's sizes are intentionally lowered on the label. I know that DTs feel better to me than WFs on my bamboo. I generally fish more medium rods, in fact, I don't own a strongly tapered or parabolic stick. I might like a WF then. But also, as said, there are many versions of a WF -- does that mean a bug taper, a SW line, a purportedly quiet taper, read a WF that lands and acts like a DT? Is the Wulff line a true WF? I suppose so. A form of it. For me it's the old broom analogy -- a broom will feel quite different, depending on how you happen to be holding it, one end from the other.
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Dano		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3 05/31/2009 09:17	The first 30 ft being typically equal to DT, WF is built to shoot line past the head.
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thegubster		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1628 05/31/2009 10:56	Flykuni2 wrote: He's right, they're right -- there're allowable variances in that business...............As in the clothes business, too, where women's sizes are intentionally lowered on the label. Aw' c'mon Darrel. They wouldn't do that, would they...??!!
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Flykuni2		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 69 06/08/2009 19:01	Dano wrote: The first 30 ft being typically equal to DT, WF is built to shoot line past the head. This is where you have to be careful -- not all front tapers are created equal.
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Larry Swearingen		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 404 06/08/2009 22:08	>> not all front tapers are created equal<< Yas, kinda like that Women's Clothes thing. Larry Swearingen New Hoosier
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mer		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3074 06/09/2009 06:54	Dano wrote: The first 30 ft being typically equal to DT, WF is built to shoot line past the head. This Internet thing is pretty neat sometimes. Lots of people put all kinds of information out there, free for the taking. Rio Selective Trout II, good specs for both WF and DT. The pictures show a WF5F vs a DT5F. Notice they are quite different for the first 30 feet. http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?recKey=106 Cortland and SA also have similar information around for their lines. All this means nothing if you take your rod to your local fly shop and cast a bunch of lines to pick the one that feels best to you. If you are going to do this, cast both WF and DT configurations in the maker specified line weight, then also try up and down 1 weight. Test cast like you would if you were fishing the rod, not like you are tournament distance casting. When you find the line that makes the rod come alive, buy 2, because I guarantee that the line manufacturer will improve the line for the next model year and it won't work the same for you. Where these specs are immensely useful is when you are changing lines or want to compare a few. Using the Rio STII, if you currently are using a DT5 and like it a lot, but think you have to work too hard to get it to load in close (say 7 feet), you could look at the specs for the WF5 and see that it is a little bit heavier but still within spec over the first 30 feet, and the front taper is a little bit shorter and steeper. To me that indicates it would load the rod a little bit better on shorter casts, feel just a little heavier at 30 feet (but still be workable), from 30 to 48 feet it would probably load very much like the DT, but past 50 feet the WF would not keep loading the rod like the DT does. If you don't fish this past 50 feet, the difference between the WF and DT would be subtle, but maybe just enough for you to prefer one over the other. If you normally fish this past 50 feet, then the WF would likely be the better choice because as Dano points out in the second bit of his reply WF are meant to shoot. Of course other options would include cutting the DT in half and adding a ton of backing or downsizing 1 weight and using a DT4. Keep in mind that casting is only a part of fishing; mending and roll casting characteristics may make a huge difference to you when choosing between the WF and DT. Look at a bunch of line specs like this; it made me realize why a Wulff TT line of the specified weight felt light for my normal fishing distances. The solution was to go up one size. Don't forget that you are the only one that has to be happy with your line choice, all the rest is just opinions and you are more than welcome to tell me I'm F.O.S. and you disagree, won't bother me a bit. This signature left intentionally blank.
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alpom		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 327 06/09/2009 09:12	Rio Classic would be a better example http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?recKey=6 Long story short, shooting line WF(shooting head design) fishing line DT
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mer		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3075 06/09/2009 10:06	alpom wrote: Rio Classic would be a better example http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?recKey=6 Long story short, shooting line WF(shooting head design) fishing line DT Rio Classic is a different example showing the same thing: the first 30 feet of a DT is typically not the same as the first 30 feet of a WF (notice how the front taper length is different, that is the key bit I wanted to emphasize). When WF were first being developed, they probably were a lot closer (I think the Cortland peach 444 is almost identical), but the line engineers started to get smarter about what they wanted the line to do, so now you just can't know without doing research. This signature left intentionally blank.
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OldCanerods		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 40 06/09/2009 16:11	If fishing small streams and/or doing short casts then the other BIG difference is that when you beat the heck out of one of these lines, you can flip ends with a DT. You can't do that with a WF. So you can get twice the life out of a DT line. Assuming you wear a line out that is.
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Flykuni2		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 70 06/09/2009 17:16	I like your post, mer. I sometimes run into fishers, of cane, of Tupperware, who claim they can't tell the diff between DTs and WFs. I'm amazed. Absolutely amazed. It's as different to me as wearing a synethetic dress shirt on a hot sticky day, versus a nice broken in cotton one.
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