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 moregrayling |
How true are Cortland Sylk lines to weight? |
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Posts: 465 06/13/2009 06:49 |
Hi All,
Are the Cortland Sylk lines light, heavy or true to their designated weight? Thanks for your input. Best, Chrsitian
them 'at knows nowt, fears nowt
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Hipgnosis |
How true are Cortland Sylk lines to weight? | #1 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 515 06/13/2009 07:59 |
Christian,
The "Sylk" lines seem to be a bit on the light side of true weight in their rod loading (e.g. a 5 wt. Sylk is more of a 4 1/2 wt. though I have never weighed the first 30' of one). I really like how they cast and their ability to make a light and delicate presentation. I use "Sylk's" almost exclusively. Mike
HIPGNOSIS
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tiptop |
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Posts: 579 06/13/2009 09:13 |
I agree with moregrayling that they "seem" light but I think that's mostly at closer distances and may be due to the taper of the first 30 ft.
being lighter than average at the tip end of the taper. If you have a full 30 ft. of line in the air, I suspect that they will load a rod pretty much like
most lines of same line wt. rating. However, sylk may not feel quite the same due to the smaller diameter, suppleness, and somewhat reduced wind resistance.
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Wyfish |
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Posts: 46 06/13/2009 09:31 |
Christian
You might try taking a little off the end of your Sylk line-- say 14" or so --and try it that way. I have removed a little more than that from my DT4 and found that it helped turn over my leaders. Have taken a little less with my DT5. Could be just the fit with the rods I use it with or my quirky casting form ( I would hesitate to call it "style"). Like Mike, I too am a fan of Sylk, especially in colder weather where I find it coils less than other lines. Hope this helps. Wyfish |
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pvansch1 |
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Posts: 4672 06/17/2009 11:47 Moderator |
Start taking off some of the fron taper. Most seem to like them with 18"-24" of the front taper removed. They have a bit of a level taper on the end.
Pete
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nwdlj |
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Posts: 36 06/17/2009 12:20 |
I keep three reels each loaded with a 4, 5, and 6 wt WF Sylk lines...any new rod gets them all lined up and tested at the casting distance that I plan to fish
the rod, usually a shorter (15'-25') than longer (45'+) distance...whatever one works best is what I use on the rod and I really don't think of
them as per the line weight, rather its the reel that I associate with the rod...I have noticed that the line weight that the rod is said to be designed for
doesn't necessarily line up with the Sylk line weight so I don't try to make the distinction. Its probably part my casting style and part how I like
the rod to feel at that time. At times, the 4 wt rod wants a 5 wt Sylk and vice versa and I have brought only 1 reel for a couple of rods as the rods will cast
different weight lines....one thing that I do agree with and maybe the reason why I also tend to use mostly the Sylks is that they do seem to have a reduced
memory that makes them easy to turn over without being limp, slinky like flexible is more the term that I like to use...anyway, that's just my personal
experience...dj
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DrakeBob |
How true are Cortland Sylk lines to weight? | #6 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 1373 06/17/2009 12:40 Formerly Drake |
This is always an interesting question whenever it comes up.
Isn't the answer ultimately that Sylk (and other lines) are true enough to comform to AFTMA line weight standards? Those standards have a tolerable range within which the first 30' of the line must fall. For instance, while a 5wt line is specified as weighing 140 grains, its tolerable range is 134 to 146 grains. So, isn't any line falling within that range a "true" 5-weight?
Piscator Non Solum Piscatur
Last Edited By: DrakeBob 06/17/2009 12:52.
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greg hall |
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Posts: 251 06/17/2009 13:17 |
Party Pooper!
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moregrayling |
true line weights | #8 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 466 06/17/2009 13:20 |
so, in your experience, all lines that are sold today by major makers are always within the tolerances of the relevant line weights as per the the
aftma-system? i.e., if it says 5-weight on the box I'll get a 5-weight?
best, christian p.s.: what about the level tips that most all flylines have? are they generaly weightless?
them 'at knows nowt, fears nowt
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DrakeBob |
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Posts: 1374 06/17/2009 13:29 Formerly Drake |
Christian, I don't know the answer to your question because I'm not a weigher of lines. But the implication from what you just said is that Cortland
"might" not be complying with AFTMA standards for Sylk lines of a given weight, i.e., they are light and not "true" to the label. While
all of the information in this thread is valuable and I think mostly correct, most of it doesn't address what I read as your base question.
I believe tips, regardless of how they are configured, are part of the first 30' of line, but that's a whole 'nother discussion - how the weight is distributed over the first 30 feet. Bob
Piscator Non Solum Piscatur
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RonT1 |
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Posts: 520 06/17/2009 14:11 |
I've worked with(in) mfg. standards all of my adult life. Is a low to spec 5 really a top of spec 4? Not really if you look at the "gap". The
"where to weigh along the tip end" horse has been hit a few times here, and in my case on plastic found to be true enough to advertised weight to
satisfy me.
Not the topic, but I did find a silk or two that were too light to the spec. Any real or perceived differances in line performance in my case is attributed to bad casting. Cheers, R |
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moregrayling |
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Posts: 467 06/17/2009 14:25 |
DrakeBob wrote: I've seen a detailed list of a "weigher of lines" as you would call him. believe me, it was most interesting... I have the distinct feeling that some of you think my goal is to create a stink. I asure you, this is not so. I owne 5- and 6-weight rods only and would like to buy a 5-weight sylk line without having to dispose of it when it doesn't work as intended (and loosing money in the process) because I didn't do my homework. as simple as that. best, christian p.s.: and thank you to all of you who cared to answer my question.
them 'at knows nowt, fears nowt
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DrakeBob |
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Posts: 1375 06/17/2009 14:40 Formerly Drake |
Christian, I thought you asked a very legitimate question, no stink implied or inferred. If you're skeptical based on the list you've already seen,
then you are probably justified in being skeptical when considering your next purchase. I was only trying to note the difference between what I believed you
were asking and what was being discussed which was more along the lines of where the weight was being distributed over the first 30 feet.
I know it's been posted here before but here is the AFTMA table. Again, I don't know if a Sylk line falls in the gap, but there surely is a gap between the weights as Ron has said. So, who's enforcing this stuff? Or is it worth enforcing if it ultimately boils down to what you like? AFTMA Fly line weight ratings (grains)
Piscator Non Solum Piscatur
Last Edited By: DrakeBob 06/17/2009 17:16.
Edited 2 times.
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greg hall |
To Sylk or not or uh well maybe... | #13 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Posts: 253 06/17/2009 15:55 |
I'm reminded of a long ago thread regarding the Wulff TT lines. It came about in the discussion that the best reference point given was to describe what
kind of rod taper was best complemented by the TT lines and in that there seemed to be some concensus among those participating. Now I could give some info on
TT lines having used a few but I can't help with the Cortland Sylk as I've only owned one and it didn't complement the rod I wanted to use it for.
Not really a fair test of the line.
It's good that Bob posted that line weight table. Maybe someday this place will have a section devoted to basic information like this archived for reference for all to use. Funny think about those grainy little gaps between the weights. Do you suppose that's where these "unofficial" + half line weights are born? |
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DrakeBob |
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Posts: 1376 06/17/2009 17:16 Formerly Drake |
I thought a bit about my own rhetorical question, "is it worth enforcing"?
Yes, I think it is - at least from the standpoint of the rod maker who is out there working to build a rod to a particular line weight and depending on the fact that people will buy lines that conform to the standard, at least within the tolerable range, so that those lines bring forth from the rod what he's planning. But then, I'm not a maker.
Piscator Non Solum Piscatur
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mac7x |
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Posts: 870 06/17/2009 21:18 |
I recall reading, I believe it was in the pamphlet that used to be enclosed with Cortland lines, that the weight was determined by the first thirty feet,
"excluding the tip on a taper". And tips vary considerably. Some people recommend cutting them off.
Italics are mine. |
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mer |
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Posts: 3081 06/18/2009 06:21 |
To my knowledge, lines that fall in between two line weights can "legally" call themselves either of the two. Say you have a line that weighs 130
grains. Is it a heavy 4 or a light 5? The manufacturer can call it either. Some have started to take advantage of this; I'll offer the RIO Grand and the SA
GPX as examples. The advertising copy for both state "Made half-size heavier to better load fast-action graphite rods and deliver terrestrials,
nymphs,...". That indicates to me if I buy either in a 5wt, that it will weigh 150grains plus/minus the same 6 grain tolerance. Of course, if its 150gr
minus 6 grains, that get us pretty darn close to 140 grains plus 6 grains.
My opinion only, I believe all current manufacturers of plastic lines do a good job of lines that conform to what it says on the package. I'm speculating that the adjustment between different line sizes take more time to setup than running a bunch of the same weight line and with the controls available today, they are within tolerance. Silk lines may show more variability given the hand labor involved.
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DrakeBob |
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Posts: 1379 06/18/2009 07:22 Formerly Drake |
I always cut the tips off of my lines to one degree or another. They're just too flimsy to adequately turn over a stiff butt leader like Maxima which is
what I mostly use. I know that delicate tips are supposed to make for delicate presentations, but I try to make my casting take care of that.
I've sent an email inquiry to Cortland asking if the tip is included in the first 30' for weighing purposes. I'll post any response I receive. Cheers, Bob
Piscator Non Solum Piscatur
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nwdlj |
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Posts: 38 06/18/2009 11:18 |
I once worked on a project about 3 wt rods and different 3 wt lines, mixing and matching 6 each of them...so the line dealers sent us examples of their lines,
I won't name manufacturers as I signed that right away...anyway, one company sent a very detailed report on how they manufacture lines and how their
Quality Assurance process works to ensure that their lines are in the range as specified...basically, their manufacturing process was a continuous flow process
where the tapered outer layer is put on a core and its just keeps flowing. The line is cut when a measuring device reads the proper diameter after the taper
and then a length of level tip is reached...anyway, the point is that both the taper and the front tip is not measured with any specified weight in mind,
rather its a diameter and length, both of which have tolerances that are dictated by the mechanical equipment that is spitting out line on a continuous
basis...so its a product that has several variances allowed, the tip can vary, the diameter can vary, the weight can vary...there is no 30 foot weighing going
on...the QA process will check lines on passing a first of lot/last of lot measurement that says all the lines in the lot in between are correct...and the lots
can vary...and that is based on the manufacturing parameters, not specifically the 30 foot weight...anyway, as I did this project, it became clear that 3wt
designations between manufacturers were representative only, definitely not for comparison between manufacturers and is why I try a rod with several lines
before deciding on what it works with and have used the same rod with a 6wt and also with an 8wt line with no problem...and unfortunately have several lines
that work with none of my rods and are in the drawer, being not what I judge as fishable...and as a waste of money...so its a great question to which I
don't try to answer anymore other than by my right hand and the rod in it...I honestly don't look at the line weight, using it as a starting point only
for purchasing, I use what reel is working with the rod...and what line is on the reel...its all a dynamic system that has to work together and we haven't
even considered the fact of adding in personal variables in casting style, rod material and design, etc. We know how a different reel can totally screw up a
rod's balance and casting and lines work the same way...being an engineer, I would love to be able to use numbers to solve this but have given up on that
approach as its subjective at best with little true objectivity achievable what with all the variables involved...I will say that I like Sylk lines and use
them on bamboo rods, but not plastic, the Mastery Series and 555 being my choices for plastic but not for bamboo...again, these are just my personal choices
and not instructions or for debating as to correctness, its just how I do things...dj
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DrakeBob |
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Posts: 1380 06/18/2009 11:33 Formerly Drake |
That's excellent information and seems to be supported by what I've now been reading.
I haven't yet heard from Cortland, but it appears that I stand corrected… In addition, John was kind enough to send me the direct quote from the pamphlet he mentions above. This is from the Fly Rod & Reel web site by Buzz Bryson and Paul Guernsey: "...the line-weight standard
is based on nothing more than the weight (in grains...) of the first 30 feet of the line, not including the level
tip." (my emphasis)
Piscator Non Solum Piscatur
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mer |
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Posts: 3084 06/18/2009 11:48 |
Bob, poke around in the old literature, where they talk about silk lines. It may have been in one of Knights books, but the issue of a "long level
tip" has been around for a long time. In fact, the "answer" was much the same as it is today: cut it back to no more than a foot or so. I think
the idea behind a long tip was so when you needed to change butt sections of a leader, you didn't have to worry about cutting some of the line off.
There is a big difference between a long level tip section and a long front taper in the way the line works.
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I'm back to what feels good...
