ET -- Thank you for asking your question. Certainly not a mistake -- it stimulated this excellent thread. I hope you'll hang around and ask some
more good questions. Cheers,
(t.o.) Martin
(t.o.) Martin
This forum began as Clark's Classic Bamboo Rod Forum, founded by Clark Davis for all who share a passion for classic rods. The forum is now owned by Whitefish Press aka Dr. Todd Larson - banjo.
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Old vs New ?
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 levertonhatches |
#21 | |||
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Posts: 574 06/15/2009 07:29 |
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ET flyrods |
Thank You | #22 | ||
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Posts: 7 06/15/2009 10:39 |
I have to tell you I was all but deceided not to return to this forum but maybe "I" misunderstood , especially after reading the latter posts. It appears there are some very sincere folks in here who took the time to answer a dummy's question without bringing bias or personal feeling into play. For that I thank you! Keep in mind folks , I am new to boo, and may ask some questions now and then that seem kind of stupid. I'm just trying to learn, and was told this is the place to do just that. Having re-considered to hang in there , I again thank you one and all..............Ed |
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pcg |
#23 | |||
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Posts: 2959 06/15/2009 11:04 Admin |
Glad you're going to stick around, Ed. At times it helps to have a thick skin, but that's simply because everyone is passionate about... well, whatever
they're discussing! But be persistent & keep asking. It's a virtual encyclopedia around here.
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Whitefish Press |
#24 | |||
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Posts: 480 06/15/2009 12:18 Sic transit piscatoria Clark's |
Ed,
Welcome to the forum and I for one am glad you asked this question, as I'm always happy to see novice/beginning boo folk seeking out answers. Very few honestly asked questions on bamboo rods are bad questions, in my mind. I think perhaps a few of the answers came "on a little strong," as we might say, as you inadvertently wandered into a pretty passionate subject matter for many bamboo fly rod anglers. You could not have known that ahead of time. We've had a bit of trouble lately with folks trying to "stir up the pot" so to speak, and perhaps a few people read your initial inquiry this way. No doubt they all realize you were seeking information, which you now have in abundance. Please continue to ask as many questions as you'd like, and don't be a stranger. After your "trial by fire," so to speak, you'll come to find the vast majority of denizens of the bamboo kingdom to be good, honest, stalwart (if often opinionated) people. -- Dr. Todd |
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FrankB |
Bowed Instruments and Bows | #25 | ||
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Posts: 18 06/15/2009 12:19 |
One need look no further than the age of stringed instruments used by world-class professionals. The bows used by these pro's
often cost thousands, and the auction record is around $150,000! However, they do have the instruments cared for, and the don't stand in the middle of a river waving them  . As I stated in
another post, a nearby shop owner fishes a rod that's
100 yrs old. He doesn't fish it daily, but it does see water on occassion. |
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Boo.fiberglassflyro... |
#26 | |||
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Posts: 156 06/15/2009 12:29 |
I'll go against the grain on this one as I prefer newer rods to older ones and here are reasons why...It's more difficult to find a older used rod
without some type of issue whether it be sets in the tips, ridging of the cork, blemishes, dirty cork, loose ferrule, rods without the original sock and/or
tubes, poor varnish etc. it goes on. Sure many are fishable but but generally they're missing something. Even if they are in excellent condition time takes
it's toll on everything and that old rod is a time bomb waiting for something to go wrong. Most of the time your getting sloppy seconds and, depending on
"the name", paying as much or nearly so as a new rod. I prefer a rod made for me. I don't believe in the "mojo" of past and/or dead
owners unless they were family. I want a rod I can put my own mojo into and make my own memories not those of someone else. I'll take that new rod over one
from someone I never knew, someone that may have been an old curmudgeon. It's also generally agreed that the best rods ever made are being made today. That
in itself says it all! So, why get anything less, unless your into the superstition of romanticizing about previous owners or makers "mojo". Also, if
your unfortunate and actually do need repair work the odds are the newer rod will still have the maker around to advise and do the work.
With all being said if you decide to go with a used older rod I'd highly recommend a used Orvis rod. They are nearly indestructible with the impregnation. They are commonly found in excellent plus condition compared to most other older used rods. They look and cast great! The prices are cheap compared to big name used rods.
Last Edited By: Boo 06/15/2009 12:34.
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czkid |
"The Test of Time" | #27 | ||
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Posts: 4024 06/15/2009 12:50 Moderator |
In the "old vs new" discussion there are some interesting aspects that may not have been totally "fleshed out" for our new member.
1) Many of our members have gravitated to the older rods because they have withstood the "test of time". Folks know what their characteristics are, and how they hold up, as well as how their value has tracked over the years. Being essentially of the collector mentality, even if they don't collect, our collective "persona" is generally one of caution and appreciation of things that are well known. 2) The new rod makers are seeming doing a good business in the size rods that were essentially "scarce" in the old days... i.e. the shorter rods and the "light line" rods. Remember... up until well into the 50s and 60s the standard rod in the US was either an 8'6" or 9'0" rod of 6 or 7 weight. These were where the highest production quantities existed... in large part because that was the most versatile size for all applications, and folks were not out buying multiple rods because of the "depression mentality". 3) Today the big market in "new rods" is certainly in the shorter lengths, lighter weights, and newer technology. Most of the "new" rods come from very small houses, and so there isn't a large quantity of them out there, even though there are a goodly number of "new" makers. 4) Many of the "old farts", like myself, are intrinsically cautious about some of the newer technology. Some of the newer glues and techniques are wonderful... but yet I've had a "new" rod, by a "new" maker literally come apart in my hands because he used the wrong "new" glue to produce a nodeless short rod. There is a great deal of interest today in "hollowbuilt" rods, and yet my limited experience with this mode of construction resulted in the rod breaking at the junction of the grip and the butt... startling to say the least. The "hot" thing right now are bamboo ferrules... but I'm an engineer and the problems that I've seen and heard of make me cautious... the technology needs more time to prove itself out. 5) These are few problems in a field that has successfully produced many new rods that have experienced no problems... but the potential is there, especially if you buy a rod from a newbie maker that doesn't have a lot of experience, and is anxious to try out "new" ideas. Older, experienced makers have all had their horror stories and learned from them. But, even at that, even they stand a chance of running into a bad batch of adhesive or other problem that may show up down the road a bit. But by and large you're totally safe purchasing a new rod from an experienced maker. 6) My particular prejudice with any rod is this: Only buy the rod that you have personally cast, and absolutely love. Don't buy the promise of a rod exactly like the one you have cast.... unless you are willing to accept variations from that which you have originally cast. Any maker worthy of his/her salt will tell you that there will be variations rod to rod, even two manufactured at the same time from essentially the same culm of bamboo... it's just the nature of the game. 7) So remember... if you are standing there with two rods in your hands, and old one and a "new" one... the old one has withstood the test of time, and is what it is. The "new" one is sort of like a new anything that you buy... in most cases it will be fine... but. The foregoing is not meant to be "Gospel", but it does say... "Do Your Homework". Ralph
Last Edited By: czkid 06/15/2009 12:57.
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OldCanerods |
#28 | |||
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Posts: 53 06/15/2009 13:46 |
ET flyrods wrote: I think the real question that you should be asking would be old or new rod cost for rod taper or built quality. Again my reply can and will set of a firestorm of replies, but since classic (50 year and older) short fly rods for small stream trout fishing are rare, you can often purchase a decent taper new rod for less cash. A known taper rod from one of many modern makers can be had for much less hurt to the pocket that an original rod from a top classic builder. Not that I'd turn down an original Garrison rod, but I doubt that I'll ever own one because of the cost. But 50 year old rods work just fine and will most likely out last a new graphite rod since a graphite rod will most likely only break once and be replaced. A bamboo rod can be scarfed or have new tips made and brought back from damage suffered in car doors etc. All IMHO. |
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JimP.fishnbanjosplace |
#29 | |||
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Posts: 35 06/16/2009 07:45 |
Well, I like Old rods AND New ones! I have pretty much decided to collect older T&T (30-40 years old) rods and, if I get a chance, I will buy a Jim Payne,
rod which will be older than 50 years. As for new rods, T Zietak quadrates and Sweetgrass hexagonal rods are my preferences. There are lots of rods out there
by old and new rod-makers that are wonderful and some duds as well. Read all you can and do not worry about older rods being any more fragile than new ones. If
you are not careful you will catch the "collector" bug and start buying more rods than you "need". If you have done your homework you can
buy rods that will not only hold but increase in value. This is more true of older rods by past masters that are no longer building rods, but can be true of
new rods as well. Good Luck and have Fun!!
JimP |
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ET flyrods |
Did I do That ? | #30 | ||
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Posts: 8 06/16/2009 09:52 |
Wow never figured on all these comments and viewpoints. I guess the heart of my original quetion stemmed from my thinking that bamboo rods were flimsy and the
older rods flexed and fished over the years made them subject to breakage. This again is because I'm new to boo and I've received enough opinions to
rid my mind of those thoughts. I appreciate your taking the time to answer and educate this bamboo novice............Thanks again.......Ed
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mer |
#31 | |||
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Posts: 3080 06/16/2009 10:12 |
Ed, you know anything about sailboats, wooden sailboats in particular or old wood/canvas canoes? If so, bamboo flyrods are similar: a well cared for vintage
(not old
 ) one is no more prone to breakage than a brand spanking new one. Some wind up being collectible because of who made them, who fished them, etc, so
they get treated more like an antique car: taken out once or twice a year and driven gently just because it feels so good when you do. But you don't use
them for the daily commute.
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sharps4590 |
#32 | |||
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Posts: 126 06/18/2009 06:53 |
The only dumb question is the one not asked. There is no such as a dumb question, only dumb answers...and there are many more quotes that state the same
thought. I'm glad you asked the question and it appears to me you got some great responses.
For me, I prefer the old rods same as I prefer old rifles, handguns and bows. I'd like to try a new 'boo rod but quite honestly I can't, or won't, afford the cost required to play. My newest 'boo rod was made in 1978 and my oldest 1929, made the same year as my Dad, (I'm 56). Certainly none of my older rods have any issues and my favorite, from 1936, (ironically the year of my Mothers birth), appears to have been either made yesterday or very well taken care of, it's that good, and cost me $200.00. Ultimately it's a matter of personal preference and taste and as has been stated there is no accounting for taste. You might get caught up in the historical aspect of fishing vintage 'boo....and maybe not...but if you do it's a heck of a lot of fun Certainly don't fear a fine, older rod. Vic |
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Titelines |
#33 | |||
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Posts: 1427 06/18/2009 08:57 Admin |
Well, there is always the question "What's the best 5 wt..."
Mark
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
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mer |
#34 | |||
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Posts: 3082 06/18/2009 09:02 |
Titelines wrote: Sage DS2
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Titelines |
#35 | |||
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Posts: 1428 06/18/2009 09:09 Admin |
mer wrote:Playing with Tupperware again, are we? ;-) Mark
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
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mer |
#36 | |||
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Posts: 3083 06/18/2009 09:42 |
Titelines wrote:Gotta have something to break.
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Battenkiller |
#37 | |||
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Posts: 17 06/18/2009 09:46 |
tedgolden wrote:Man, that is so true. I wish I could steal that to describe the old musical instruments I deal with. People ask me if age improves an instrument, and I always reply with what I believe is the truth: playing improves a musical instrument. The more it is played, the more open and responsive it becomes, and the better it is played the better it will sound. Therefore, the best sounding instruments will have been played by the best musicians for a very long time, then handed down to the next generation of virtuosos, and the next until finally it reaches the prime of its life. In the case of a fine violin, that may not occur for 100 years of playing. After another 100 years, the instrument begins to acquire those mystic, mythic and magical qualities that absolutely cannot be described. Today's great makers can imitate the graduations of a famous Stradivari or Guarnieri violin down to a few thousandths of an inch throughout. They have at their disposal vast quantities of fine tone wood, from recently cut wood right to ancient timbers. They are so adept that they can mimic every nick and wear mark of the original to perfection, yet these instruments will have none of the above mentioned qualities, nor will they come close to having that unbelievable ability to attain vocal tones reminiscent of the human voice that is a hallmark of a great instrument. With that said, I feel that wood does get weaker in the process of being used. In the case of a violin, it is my belief that billions of vibrations over the centuries, vibrations applied to the instrument by players who can both play perfectly in tune and can achieve a sonorous tone, change the structure of the wood in critical areas, eventually freeing tight spots and allowing them to vibrate better and improving the tone and playability of the instrument. In a fiddle, this can go on for a very long time, but eventually, the sound of the instrument, like the bouquet and taste of a fine Bordeaux, gradually begins to decline. At this point (maybe 300 years) the instrument is no longer suited for a concert musician. No longer can it produce quite what the great artist requires of it in a large concert hall, but let me assure you, it still sounds damn good. What does that mean in a fly rod? I'm not sure, but I believe that the rod will "remember" the way it has been cast over the years, limbering up in ways that smooth out it's casting stroke. After a while, the rod will want to perform its best when cast like its previous owner cast it. It has acquired something of the personality of the owner. If you find such a rod and it suits your casting style, poetry is in the making. Maybe it won't throw a 5 wt so well anymore and you need to fish it with a 4 wt, but I'll bet it feels better and plays a fish better than many a new 4 wt of similar action. Sadly, like the old masterpiece violins, the wood will eventually fatigue as all materials do when subjected to repeated stress cycles. Maybe then it's time to stop fishing that old sweetheart so often, or donate it to a museum. But I suspect that for the average guy who gets to fish maybe several dozen days a year and has a fair selection of rods that he rotates through the season, it will be a very, very long time in some future owner's lifetime before that day comes. |
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