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Doublegun |
Leader length? |
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What are the general rules for length of leaders for fishing cane rods? I seem to be stuck on 9-1/2' leaders for just about everthing which may not be the
most practical or best thing to do. Suggestions? I am fishing 6'6", 7'2', 7'6" and 8' rods. (I try to stick to 7-1/2'
leaders for the 6'6" rod).
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Cane Head |
#1 | |||
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I don't think there are general rules concerning matching leader length to rod length. I tend to match leader length to water size and how wary the fish
are. On big waters like the Missouri while I am using a 7 1/2' to 8 1/2' cane, my leaders tend to run from 9' to 12'. On small streams I use
a 6 1/2' or 7' 4wt rod and a 7 1/2' leader. Wary fish have me using long leaders while eager fish on small streams have me using a shorter one.
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WatercolorMan |
#2 | |||
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There are no rules. I customize my setup, it depends on how close your fishing and on what rivers. I go from 5' and up on my 7' rod. I go up to 18'
on a 7'9" rod.
I think some just use what comes pre packaged because its so easy to go that way. Or maybe we are all nuts and just like to do it our own way. I for one am not to good at following the crowd. I look for what works best for any giver condition. |
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16 pmd |
#3 | |||
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I agree with Cane Head - match the leader length to the water and the wariness of the fish, not the length of the rod. Try to use as short a leader as the fish
will let you get away with. A handy and easy technique is to carry a spool of leader butt material with you. If you need a longer leader, just add the
apppropriate amount of butt material to the butt by knotting it into the existing butt section. I think you will find that it doesn't affect the turnover
as much as trying to extend the leader from the tippet section and is very effective at fooling the fish by keeping the line farther away from them.
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mer |
#4 | |||
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Keep in mind all I'm go to say here is my opinion, based on what seems to work good enough for me, because I'd rather be fishing than rebuilding
leaders on the stream.
I'm going to moderately disagree with Canehead in his matching leader butt to line weight; I found that matching the leader butt to the line based on relative flexibility works better for me. If you look at the diameter of a furled leader at the end that attaches to the fly line, I'd bet that they wind up larger than the specs he's quoted above. But for that larger diameter you get incredible flexibility, so your leader butt is basically a flexible weight that transfers the energy from the fly line to the leader better. What you don't want to do (at least not normally) is have too big of a difference (diameter, stiffness) so that the energy from the fly line hits a discontinuity and can't transfer the energy to the fly smoothly. Lefty Kreh, AK Best, Charles Ritz all have something to say on this, just to get you thinking about where else to look. That said, length is important. Long enough to get the desired result, short enough to control. My typical setup for 4-6 wt fishing: Start with a RIO 7-1/2 3x standard trout leader. Cut off the loop, needle or nail knot to the line. Cut off about 6-9 inches of the 3x end (I've miked them and seems to be about 18 inches of "tippet"). Grab a spool of maxima chameleon 4x, pull off an arms length (about 36 inches or so), blood knot to the 3x. That gives me about a 10 foot leader, with 3 foot of 4x on it. This works well enough for me for general fishing down to about size 14, because the length of the 4x gives nice slop (S curves) which help reduce drag (the George Harvey school of thought). If I need or when the 4x has been cut back enough because of fly changes (back to about 12 inches) I'll pull off an arms length of 5x flurocarbon and tie that on, then get back to the fishing. So, basically I seem to be using a 9 to 12 foot leader for pretty much all line weights, all rod lengths, all types of fishing, except high water/heavy underwater/streamer, when I cut the 4x off and tie in a bit more 3x to make an 8 foot 3x leader. Is my system for everyone? Nope. Does is always work? If you define "works" as "let Mike keep the fly in the water", yes. Is it optimal? Sometimes, yes. But it works good enough for me, you do what works good enough for you.
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pvansch1 |
#5 | |||
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The majority of my trout fishing the past couple of years has been with an 8' 5wt.
For a leader I buy Climax 9' 5x and use it until it's out of tippet (about 5.5'-6' of leader left). Then tie a loop. I add either 4x or 5x to get back to 9' when it gets cut back close to the loop, remove that and add another. I dont' find any disadvantage to the loop (no hinging) Like MER I like to keep the flies on the water. syste mis quick for me for adding tippet as needed. I will add if needed lighter tippet with a surgeons loop, also quick and easy to tie.
Pete
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BlackHillsBill |
#6 | |||
mer wrote:Mike starts with the essentials and ends up with a very efficient design, which keeps you fishing rather than fiddling with your leader--just about all you could ask for. |
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Doublegun |
#7 | |||
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Thanks, all. This is exactly the type of help I was hoping for. I had never considered the diameter of the butt section but that does make some sense. I
have to think a 9-1/2' 5x would turn differently on a 6-wt vs. a 4-wt. Right now I have been using hand-tied leaders made of Maxima cameleon (sp?) with
the tippet being clear Maxima amd I carry spools of clear tippet material for replacing the tippit when necessary. It is a pretty good and traditional system
and works fine, but I feel I do need to shorten things up when fishing my 6611 on smaller streams.
When I first got back into fly fishing 20 years ago I tried the braided leaders from Orvis but I have not even thought about them since I don't know when. I guess they seemed like a gimic or lazy way to fish. I have read the thread concerning furled leaders and that has me thinking about them again. |
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mer |
#8 | |||
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DG: yes, the same leader setup I use probably does turn over a little differently on my 4s vs heavier, but not enough to make me want to optimize anything
(maybe I don't even feel it). I think it all goes back to the relative flexibility of the leader butt vs the end of the fly line; all the furled leaders
commercially available are made for a range of line weights "in one leader". Take the Bluesky ones: a Light one is to be used on 3 to 5 wt lines.
Same leader, different line weights; the leader butt is very flexible. Speculating, the difference that I would expect would be how big of a fly you can
ultimately turn over (big fly is relative. A size 14 BiVisible is big aerodynamically). The 3 weight line just doesn't have as much energy to pass on to
the leader as the 5 wt does. On my shorter rods (a 6 footer and a 6-1/2 footer) I still use the same leader setup; I just make sure the line to leader
connection is very smooth so it doesn't get hung up because I accept that the leader has to come inside the tiptop when landing a fish. Heck a 6 foot rod
gives you 12 feet of leader from reel, out the top and back down to the reel. Add in extending your arm, your height out of the water and you still have most
of the leader out the tip when landing. I just don't leave the rods strung up that way for a long time, just to avoid kinking the leader.
Again, all this is just my opinion based on "I'd rather be fishing than rebuilding leaders", if it helps great, if it confuses the issue, sorry
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Cane Head |
#9 | |||
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Mer - Those diameters I listed approach the flexibility of the given line weights. Different brands of butt material have somewhat different flexibility with
usually Maxima and Mason being about the most stiff. But usually more than not those diameters have about the same flexibility as the end of the fly line.
Furled leaders are a bit different in that they have a high amount of flexibility since they aren't built with thick diameter butt material, but rather
small diameter material. With that in mind, they can have a bigger diameter than that I listed above and retain the flexibilty to match line weights. The
diameters I listed above is for mono leaders, whether your are making hand ties or working with a commercial knotless tapered leader.
One thing I don't do is sit around on the bank building leaders, but I do buy or make tapered leaders with my line weights in mind, or modify a generic tapered leader to match my lines. When buying a knotless tapered leader, I mike the tippet back to where it ends in body of the leader, clip it off, and then tie a perfection loop and then add my tippet via loop to loop. What I do wind up with is a store bought tapered leader that will last me the entire season since all I have to do is replace the tippet. Cane |
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mer |
#10 | |||
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I think we're "saying the same thing only different" here. Variations on a theme. All opinions on what works for us. Sitting on the bank
building leaders is a good thing to do when you need to waste time until the hatch.
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kimk |
#11 | |||
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When the season starts, and fishing is streamers, wets and nymphs, I use store bought 7 1/2 foot leaders 3X. I have learned to guestimate trim the butts to
match the various lines I fish. I have almost gotten good at it too. I buy all my leaders at 3X and tie another 12 -- 14 inches of 3X on to that. Tippets down
to 5x are added depending on hook size and water clarity and speed.
When the rivers start to drop and the water becomes clear I use hand tied leaders that I have developed for the three lines I might fish under these conditions. I think I can make a better dry fly presentation in slow clear water with the leaders I have fine tuned. For wets and nymphs I am not so fussy and I don't think the fish are either. When I started to accumulate lines and reels I had difficulty keeping track of what leaders were on any given line, and no way to guess the tippet size without a mic or gauge. So I standardized my store bought leaders at 3X . Any leader I find in the vest will have 3X for the first section of tippet. The hand tied leaders are tied so that the sixth section down from the butt is 0X. A count of sections from there gives me the tippet size. As a general rule of thumb I fish as short and heavy a leader as I can get away with and as long and fine as I need. AgMD |
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Eric Peper |
#12 | |||
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Something I've started doing on my lines (almost all 4s and 5s) that don't have a manufactured loop in the end is to take a 10-12 inch section from a
store bought leader I like and needle knot this to the end of the line, retaining the Perfection loop that was on the original leader. Then I add an identical
tapered leader to the short section by loop-to-loop. I add my tippets as Cane Head describes above except that I clinch knot the tippet to the loop I tie in
the end of the leader. FWIW, I fish 8' bamboo and 5X or 6X tippets almost all the time, and I find a 7.5' 4X basic leader is the most
useful/practical. I add a tippet of about 40" resulting in an approx. 11' overall leader. The needle knot and loop-to-loop connection moves through
the guides almost unimpeded.
EP |
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bswild |
leaders | #13 | ||
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I wish I could find a knotless leader I could live with. But I can't. I tie my own, because of it. But it IS kind of a hair-shirt. I hate lugging around
all that mono, rebuilding leaders, etc. Yeah, I've tried the furled, and didn't care for them. I've tried every knotless leader. But the butts are
too fat for my 4-weight, which likes 0.19 or 0.17. No leader is perfect. But I wish I was like some of the fishermen I know: they tie on a knotless, add a
little tippet, and they're good to go. I still like my old Harvey style leader, despite all the damned tying.
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nationalbar |
leaders | #14 | ||
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I've used the Harvey leader for a while as well, it works great for its intended purpose, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. (Apologies to
cat lovers)
Mike Lawson's book on Spring Creeks recommends a modified knotless leader that I've used with good success for a couple of seasons now and eliminates the ubiquitous .021 or .022 butts on knotless leaders. Starting with a 9ft knotless leader ( I use SA), and using a leader gauge, measure the butt down to where it starts to taper down to .017. Cut it off there. Now tie in an .017 piece of softer material ( Here I use Orvis SS) to replace the jettisoned butt, usually 4ft or so on the SA leader. At the tippet end, assuming you start with a 4X knotless leader, again using a leader gauge, trim it back to where you just read 3X. Now tie in 15" of 4X, then 3 ft of 5X. You now have an 11 ft (+ or - a few inches) leader that mimics the George Harvey slack leader, but with only 3 knots. As usual, you'll need to adjust the tippet length or thickness to accommodate the air resistance of your fly, just like the Harvey recipe. Works like a charm on 3, 4 and 5wt lines.
Last Edited By: nationalbar 06/29/2009 06:53.
Edited 1 time.
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jbenenson |
don't worry about it | #15 | ||
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bswild, there really is no such thing as a knotless leader after you've fished long enough to replace the tippet. I think that knotless leaders are
manufactured to save on time and labor. I also don't think that it makes much difference what one uses. The fish don't care so it's up to the
individual angler's preferences.
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Battenkiller |
#16 | |||
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I tie my own, always have. Maxima Chameleon at the butt, limp mono at the terminus. I used to try all types of tapers since I thought it would make a
difference, but as I got to be a better caster, I learned that it is more important to modify my casting stroke for the cast at hand. All those years of
sitting by the fire tying leaders while waiting for the coffee to finish perking weren't for naught, though. I can tie a 5-6 turn blood knot in 30
seconds. This is a skill that became very useful back when I used to guide.
So for me, it's not a matter of time but simply avoiding having to keep the damn things organized. I used to carry about a dozen different leaders in the little plastic envelopes my wife's birth control pills came in (I had Lady Battenkill fixed a while back, so the BCP packs are no longer available), each with its name and length written on the outside with a black Sharpie. I tried every formula I could find, but eventually gave up on the whole thing. It's possible that a huge leader selection improves the catching, but the fishing suffers in the process. I almost always fish a 4 or 5 wt for trout, and I like .017" for the butt in either case. For dries, I go with a formula I found in a book, I think it was a John Merwin thing that I may or may not have altered, I can't remember because of all the cheap beer I drank from aluminum cans in my youth. 48" 017, 24" .015, 18" .013, 12" .012 followed by 8" sections, each reduced by .001 (all tied with 6-turn blood knots) until just before the tippet, for which I use a double surgeon's knot. Makes a 12-15' leader depending on the size and length of the tippet. I always put on about 5' of tippet and clip it to the necessary length once on the stream. Makes life easier. I nail knot the butt directly to the fly line the first time, but if I change leaders for some reason I clip off the old one and leave about 18" or so attached to the line and then trim the butt on the new leader to the right length. Since a carefully tied blood knot only uses about an 1" of material from each end, I can tie on about a dozen leaders if I ever need to. By that time, however, the end of the fly line would be so bunged up that I'd need to tie a new nail knot. If I feel I really need a shorter leader, I cut the butt section back a foot or so and re-tie. I always carry 2x-6x mono (Rio Powerflex) on my vest. 99% of leader tangles can be fixed while standing in the water using just those thicknesses. Since I tie my own, I always know exactly what size mono to use and where. If it's so bad I can't rebuild... that's what the extra leaders are for. Anyway, that's my simple but effective system, at least it works for me. I feel that leader length is at least somewhat dependent on the rod and its action, the length of line you have out and your individual casting stroke. The leader helps to slow down the velocity of the cast, the longer it is, the better it does so. If you have an aggressive stroke and the fly rebounds back at the end of the cast, you can get a more delicate presentation by lengthening your leader. Too long and you lose control of the drift in complex currents. Also, extremely long leaders are hard to mend compared with the line itself. I don't think anything beyond 12' fools the fish any better, but the addition of an extra foot of fine tippet can make all the difference on a spooky fish since it allows a longer drift. It's all a matter of tippet length, not total leader length. OTOH, I'll use a shorter tippet to help throw a hook into the leader by overpowering the cast. Getting the line and leader on the water correctly works much better for me than worrying about lots of loose tippet giving me a good drift. Most fish take quickly after the fly hits the water (within a couple of feet) if you made a good presentation, so long drifts are something I tend to avoid when I can. As far as nymphing leaders, I do carry a few shorter leaders (I use Sunset Amnesia for the butts of these since it makes a built in visual indicator), but since I'm a dry fly guy I rarely use them. They are real nice for close casts in heavy pocket water on rivers like the West Branch of the Ausable in NY where a long leader pulls the fly all over the place. |
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ibookje |
#17 | |||
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My setup is pretty simple:
7,5 ft leader, 4x tip I cut off about a foot of the tip and tie a small perfection loop. I extend this with 4x or 5x, usually about 3-4ft long. |
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freestoner.fiberglassflyro... |
#18 | |||
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I nail-knot Amnesia chartreuse green for my leader butt section- a different diameter depending on the line size. Amnesia is stiff, but not wire-stiff; it
turns over well for me when used with plastic fly lines. Then I tie a perfection loop in it. Then I use the Fishpond leader gauge on a Rio knotless leader, to
find the appropriate place to snip off the butt section length that I no longer want to use, loop the cut end, and use a loop to loop connection toward the
butt. If necessary, I tie more tippet at the other end.
This allows me to use the stiff and highly visible Amnesia for the first 3'-4' of leader (it tracks the fly great, pointing at it like an arrow, and also makes a great subsurface strike indicator); makes for a small, tight loop to loop connection between mono sections that still remains outside of the tip-top when a fish is brought to hand; allows me to use the best part of knotless mono leaders- the taper and tippet section- while snipping the excess butt sections (which are low-vis, typically soggy, and prone to curling); makes for a minimum of knots; and allows for extending the tippet easily. I either tie a blood knot or a surgeon knot for tippets- I don't like using loops near the tippet, personally. I haven't been happy with the furled leaders I've used, as yet. They don't straighten as well as the Amnesia mono, the furling picks up more dirt, debris, and moss, and I have a tough time trusting the little furled loops that are supposed to be used for attaching tippet. I arrived at this method from fishing Pa. limestone streams- anyone who's done so knows of the advantages of minimizing leader knots in that situation. I'm still not all that good at fishing them, but I have figured out a few of the easier tricks.
"I can't not believe in a creator. The birds sing too beautifully and the trout are too speckled." John Martyn 1948-2009
Last Edited By: freestoner 06/28/2009 16:51.
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Cane Head |
#19 | |||
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I shied away from store bought knotless leaders years ago, but if you spend anytime on the Missouri during summer time you learn to appreciate the benefits of
a knotless leader. It's a virtual floating salad bowl and every knot in a handtied will catch the greens. Furled and braided butts get equally slimed. In
order to deal with the conditions I learned to modify the tapered mono to fit my needs. No one leader does it all so it helps to have a variety at your
disposal.
Cane |
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