HI rod decals

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Tim Kingfisher	HI rod decals		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 06/26/2009 19:54	Tags : None I am looking for full-color drawings/photos/graphics of various HI rod labels from the 40s and 50s. An artist friend may be able to recreate decals for rods if I can provide some quality art. Any ideas?
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OldCanerods		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 81 06/27/2009 14:14	Oh boy, I feel a firestorm coming.
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flyfishermann1955		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 172 06/27/2009 15:02	Tim, Although not in color, here's a starting point for your search. See Michael Sinclair's Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook. There are black and white drawings for 7 different decals on page 106 with descriptions about the colors of the decals and the years they were used on page 105. Ken
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PaducahMichael		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 724 06/27/2009 17:58	flyfishermann1955 wrote: Tim, Although not in color, here's a starting point for your search. See Michael Sinclair's Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook. There are black and white drawings for 7 different decals on page 106 with descriptions about the colors of the decals and the years they were used on page 105. Ken Ken and Tim, Those decals depicted in my book were intended to help identify rods and perhaps the era in which they were built. I'm still on the fence about the morality of replacing decals, though I must say that as far as rods like H-I, South Bend and Montague, there would be little to be gained by replacing partial decals with complete new decals, or even by "upgrading" to a higher model. In a perfect world, decal or marking replacement should be an accepted part of restoration much like replacing the wraps - AS LONG AS IT WAS DONE "AS ORIGINAL". But as a rod's collectible value rises, so does the temptation to counterfeit the markings or wrappings on a rod to make it seem more valuable than it really is. Much like gluing the corners from a $100 bill over the corners of a $10 bill APPEARS to raise the value of the $10 bill, it does not. All you have is a counterfeit that is now neither a $100 nor a $10, though the casual observer may not notice the counterfeiting until too much money has already changed hands. I would not count on getting my money back from someone who would do this in the first place. I have seen and heard of rods that were already GREAT and RARE being "upgraded" by changing the markings and wrappings.....now those rods are nothing less than counterfeits - and are as worthless as a counterfeit $100 bill to an honest collector. I have been asked on numerous occasions to do similar things, such as changing a Granger Aristocrat to a Granger Favorite - I have and will continue to refuse to do this type of work. As for the decals I am still on the fence - but leaning toward saying that's going too far in restoring a rod. I'd sure like to hear others thoughts on this. The New Divine Rods
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bobbeegee		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2811 06/27/2009 18:35	In my opinion, I would prefer a Horrocks Ibbotson, South Bend, or Montague rod with the original decal, or what's left of it. It is original to the rod and adds significantly to that originality. It somehow just seems right, and adds to the value, again in my opinion. I can't help but think of the buyer fifty years in the future who thinks the decal is original to the rod. I guess these things happen to old rods, I for one just don't like to think about it! Maybe if the new decal was somehow designated as a replacement?? Bob Go Heels!!!
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Tim Kingfisher		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2 06/28/2009 11:48	Thanks for the input. I think I'm leaning towards the "partial original decal" as opposed to the "reproduction" decal, after reading the logic given. Tim
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flyfishermann1955		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 173 06/28/2009 20:25	Michael, Since you asked, here are my thoughts on "replacement decals". When restoring a rod, I don't see a "replacement decal" being any different than replacing the original thread wraps, a badly ridged cork grip, or missing/damaged guides. I think it would be fine to offer this service to your clients. They could choose to leave a rod without a decal, keep a partial original decal, or have a replacement decal added. I know you can buy "replacement" butt caps made for Heddon rods to replace damaged or missing "original" butt caps. One Pfoot offers many replacement parts for Medalist reels. With today's computer graphic capabilities, it should be fairly simple to re-create these old decals. It may be a matter of demand versus cost since H-I was mass producing rods during the Golden Age of Bamboo compared to the number of rods being restored today. There may also be "trade mark" issues to consider. I know there are some "replacement decals" available. I've seen a few pictures of rods and read some descriptions of rods that were noted "replacement decal". I agree it does open the door to deceptive practices. Someone could take a Tonka Queen made in the early 1950s and replace the original olive and black rectangular decal with a fancier decal from an earlier period in an attempt to make the rod appear older and presumably more valuable. Ken
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PaducahMichael		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 725 06/28/2009 20:31	Hi Ken, I agree with you - and I suppose we must all depend on the restorer to be honest. Most of them are, I think, and they go far out of their way to make sure they do a good job of keeping the rod original. I'm going to put together an essay about Restoration Ethics. I'll post it here when it is done, and I'll hope that it will be "stickied" to stay at the top. It might answer a lot of questions that are bugging potential restorers, and perhaps reinforce the importance of restoring vs. refinishing or counterfeiting. I'm going to try to do that this coming week. I need the exercise in writing! The New Divine Rods
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OldCanerods		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 83 06/29/2009 10:51	Why not make a reproduction label that has an ID'ing "error" so that it wouldn't be confused with an original rod complete with it's factory decal. Something such as a size change, color change or script change so that it could always be known to be a reproduction. You would have a decal that would give the look of the original rod upon casual viewing, but not be passed off as something other than a restored rod.
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Battenkiller		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 35 06/29/2009 18:25	flyfishermann1955 wrote: I agree it does open the door to deceptive practices. Someone could take a Tonka Queen made in the early 1950s and replace the original olive and black rectangular decal with a fancier decal from an earlier period in an attempt to make the rod appear older and presumably more valuable. This is done all the time in my field, which is violin restoration. One of the favorite things for crooks to do is to take a label from an modern Italian instrument that has been damaged beyond salvation and glue it inside a contemporary American violin (some 20th century American violins bear a strong resemblance to modern Italian fiddles). It is then placed in auction and the description says something like "bearing the label of....." but without making an actual attribution to the maker on the label. Someone always convinces themselves that they are getting the deal of the century, often bidding ridiculous prices against a shill bidder in the room. Except for the shill, no crime has been committed. The big auction houses say that this can never happen, but I know for a fact that it happens all the time. With even a mediocre Italian violin being worth several times what a mint Garrison or Gillum might be valued at, the temptation is too great for some to ignore. When I restore an old instrument, I make every effort to make the instrument look like it has never been restored. The greatest attention is paid to wood matching and invisible glue lines and varnish matching. It is considered totally proper and ethical to add a few artificial touches of age so that the new part doesn't stick out with its perfect surface. I've done my job correctly if even I have a hard time telling what was done. You might say that my personal ethics tell me that anything is OK in a restoration except for fraud. Therefore, a rod decal being replaced during a routine restoration would be totally Kosher as long as that is what the rod originally bore. Same with a signature that has partially worn away (this from another recent post). Putting a different name or serial number than the rod originally had can only be described as deceptive, and to sell such a rod without full disclosure would be fraud.
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PaducahMichael		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 727 06/29/2009 22:28	Battenkiller wrote: flyfishermann1955 wrote: I agree it does open the door to deceptive practices. Someone could take a Tonka Queen made in the early 1950s and replace the original olive and black rectangular decal with a fancier decal from an earlier period in an attempt to make the rod appear older and presumably more valuable. This is done all the time in my field, which is violin restoration. One of the favorite things for crooks to do is to take a label from an modern Italian instrument that has been damaged beyond salvation and glue it inside a contemporary American violin (some 20th century American violins bear a strong resemblance to modern Italian fiddles). It is then placed in auction and the description says something like "bearing the label of....." but without making an actual attribution to the maker on the label. Someone always convinces themselves that they are getting the deal of the century, often bidding ridiculous prices against a shill bidder in the room. Except for the shill, no crime has been committed. The big auction houses say that this can never happen, but I know for a fact that it happens all the time. With even a mediocre Italian violin being worth several times what a mint Garrison or Gillum might be valued at, the temptation is too great for some to ignore. When I restore an old instrument, I make every effort to make the instrument look like it has never been restored. The greatest attention is paid to wood matching and invisible glue lines and varnish matching. It is considered totally proper and ethical to add a few artificial touches of age so that the new part doesn't stick out with its perfect surface. I've done my job correctly if even I have a hard time telling what was done. You might say that my personal ethics tell me that anything is OK in a restoration except for fraud. Therefore, a rod decal being replaced during a routine restoration would be totally Kosher as long as that is what the rod originally bore. Same with a signature that has partially worn away (this from another recent post). Putting a different name or serial number than the rod originally had can only be described as deceptive, and to sell such a rod without full disclosure would be fraud. Well said, and I agree. The New Divine Rods
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