Thanks, Mike
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mtn |
Paul Young kit rod |
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I was visiting with a friend today who recently got a Paul Young kit rod. It's a 7'6" 3 piece blank 2 tips all the furnishings, guides, tip tops,
reel seat (Young stamped butt cap) ferrules. It's never been assembled/finished out, in perfect condition, he asked me to finish it out for him.
It's medium to light cane not flamed. I read that Young sold kits to finish out. Nice blank but it has a few watermarks. Anyone have an ideal to it's
value? or any other info, age etc? My guess from miking it is a 5wt.
Thanks, Mike |
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quashnet |
#1 | |||
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The three-piece format in a small rod hints at an early date. Paul H. Young was making catalog-based offerings of kit rod materials at least as early as the
1930's. For example, the 1938 catalog offered "Special Fly Rod Sticks" to build three-piece rods of 7'6" (and longer rods too). PHY
wrote, "These 'sticks' are mitered and glued by the most modern machinery by one of the first and most renowned bamboo rod makers." Note that
he did not claim to personally build these blanks. They may be Heddon-origin (I have a 7'6" 3-piece Young rod, circa early 1930's, that looks like
it may be Heddon-based), or another manufacturer. Is there any paperwork, or are there any labels on packaged materials or hardware? Good photos of everything
may be helpful in making a better guess.
Quashnet's Paul H. Young Rod Database has photos and descriptions of 465 PHY Co. rods, plus catalogs, accessories,
etc. Thank you to all who continue to send me PHY rod photos and info.
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mtn |
re | #2 | ||
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Quashnet, It's lighter in color than Heddons, no visible glue lines, I'll get some photos next time I visit my friend. Only identifing thing is the
stamped butt cap which is aluminum along with the sliding ring on a mortised cork seat. 2 x 2 node placement. No packaging. I figured it was early if made by
PHY, no flaming.
Mike
Last Edited By: mtn 06/25/2009 09:05.
Edited 2 times.
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quashnet |
#3 | |||
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The cork grip and mortised seat may be the part of this kit most likely to have been handmade by Young himself. See Todd Larson's excellent article on
Young's early work with rods, found here. The article includes these excerpts from a letter written
by Young to his lawyer:
Starting around 1930 I purchased a good many styles of cork grips from So. Bend and used them in assembling special rods along with Cross and other glued up stock. These grips, I installed big end up and milled a thumb rest, often two, into the cork... In 1933 I had [Fred] Thomas incorporate a similar styled grip on a number of custom orders that are still being used around here. From 1938 to 1942 I assembled good numbers of fly rods here of So. Bend, Edwards, Heddon and other sticks, making my own grips and putting in a single or double thumb rest, depending on the size of the rod. Young began assembling rods from components entirely made by others, then progressed to making his own cork grips. The Young rods that can be shown to be entirely his work are post-WWII.
Quashnet's Paul H. Young Rod Database has photos and descriptions of 465 PHY Co. rods, plus catalogs, accessories,
etc. Thank you to all who continue to send me PHY rod photos and info.
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czkid |
Hmmmmmmm!!! | #4 | ||
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The three piece format and light cane bring forth thoughts of the 8'6" PHY Special that I have. The rod has a lot of characteristics of Heddon
products, without the darker color associated with Heddon. Michael Sinclair muttered over the rod for 3 days at Bamboo Bash '09 and could not come to a
complete conclusion. It could be that my rod and your friend's blanks might be from a Heddon manufacturing source with custom specs by PHY.
Most of us date my rod as early.... probably in the early 30's... but as is so common with things PHY.... who the heck knows???? Ralph |
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quashnet |
Some photos to compare with the kit materials | #5 | ||
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PHY DRY FLY SPECIAL, very early, 7-1/2', 3/2, cap and ring, Detroit stamp on cap, very finely mortised wood seat,
cigar grip, metal winding check, ring hookkeeper, swelled butt, orange and black wraps below hookkeeper, black wraps at guides with dark staining of cane at
these wraps, plus other black stains (not flame marks) elsewhere, red agate stripping guide, inked handwriting "Paul H. Young / Dry Fly Special" on
two flats, two tips are each a bit short. Node spacing is random. Aluminum tube with tight-fitting slip-top cap; green bag. Possibly a much-refinished, early
1930's Heddon-built or Heddon kit rod, or a 1930's rod that Paul Young rebuilt. This kind of guessing is necessary because rod descriptions are vague
or non-existent in the 1930's Young catalog materials. It was the Depression, and Young had to build rods, or subcontract their assembly, using whatever
materials might be scrounged at any given time to try to make a buck.
This is a drawing from the 1927 Paul H. Young catalog. Compare the drawing with the close-up photo of the same rod.
ANOTHER PHY DRY FLY SPECIAL, early, Heddon-based, same inked handwriting "Paul H. Young / Dry Fly Special" on two flats as the rod above, 7'6", 3/2, cap and ring over cork reel seat, dark winding check, ring hookkeeper, swelled butt, similar but not identical wrap pattern below hookkeeper as rod above, attached card on bag reads "Paul H. Young / 7 1/2' 3.86 oz. - 1 1/2 Fer" - thus combining Paul Young's typical practice of recording exact rod weight with Heddon's ferrule size designation. 1930's? This rod was seen at Bob Selb's booth at a Lang's show, around 2006.
czkid's PHY SPECIAL, 8'6", 3/2, different inked printing by unknown hand "PAUL H. YOUNG SPL." on one flat, five-digit number does not match PHY Co. serial numbering system begun in 1955, cap and ring over wooden reel seat, orange and black decorative wraps, ring hookkeeper, agate stripping guide.
Quashnet's Paul H. Young Rod Database has photos and descriptions of 465 PHY Co. rods, plus catalogs, accessories,
etc. Thank you to all who continue to send me PHY rod photos and info.
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mtn |
re: phy kit | #6 | ||
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Thanks for the good info quash and cz. I should get a chance to get photos of the rod this weekend and will post them. I looked over the blank carefully no
issues of concern on construction and was ask my opinion as to it's value but only know enough to be dangerous, I could probably buy it, any ideals on a
good price? As I mentioned it's a nice blank other than the cosmetic water marks which doesn't bother me straight and of course un finished with all
the hardware.
I did mike the rod below are the numbers:
0 = 071
5 = 085
10 = 111
15 = 117
20 = 120
25 = 149
30 = 165
35 = 168
40 = 177
45 = 188
50 = 205
55 = 215
60 = 232
65 = 241
70 = 245
75 = 259
80 = 291
85 = 321
90 = 312
Best, Mike |
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mtn |
re: phy photos | #7 | ||
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Here are photos of the hardware and blank. Any thoughts?
Thanks, Mike |
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quashnet |
#8 | |||
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Even though it's three-piece format, the blank might be post-WWII. This would be later work than I had first thought, which raises the possibility that PHY
built the blank. What's the node arrangements (tips and butt may be different sequences)? The butt cap is authentic and shows diagonal edge marks, which I
have seen before on some PHY rods. The ferrules predate use of Super-Zs. The ends of the blank have been turned to accept the ferrules, an operation that PHY
separately described in the catalog as one that he would do for a dollar. It would help so much if I could see the whole kit, as well as the separate
close-ups. It would also help to see the cork grip; PHY was proud of his work with cork. It looks like the butt cap is attached to a cork reel seat; if so is
there also a grip attached to the entire assembly? What is its overall shape? Is there a thumb indentation?
Quashnet's Paul H. Young Rod Database has photos and descriptions of 465 PHY Co. rods, plus catalogs, accessories,
etc. Thank you to all who continue to send me PHY rod photos and info.
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mtn |
re | #9 | ||
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The node spacing is 2 x 2 on all sections. Unfortunately it didn't have a grip with it. The butt cap is attached to the reel seat and the seat is
mortused, nicely done. The first photo shows everything I have, no packaging came with it, had 12 snake guides nice quality as well as the tip tops, the
striper is light gauge and the butt cap and sliding ring are aluminum. Would any other photos of the blank help?
Mike
Last Edited By: mtn 06/29/2009 00:46.
Edited 2 times.
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quashnet |
#10 | |||
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2x2 is good. 2x2 is believed to have been PHY's first choice in node arrangement. But if cane had to be conserved, as was often the case, then 3x3 node
arrangements were used. Someone who has a better understanding of rod making than I do will hopefully comment on the taper numbers. But let's assume, just
for the sake of argument, that this is a post WWII kit from, say, 1948. PHY had extensive offerings of do-it-yourself rod materials in the 1948 catalog.
Although he stated his personal preference for two-piece rods, PHY offered his finished rods and his kits in three-piece format. In the 1948 catalog he offered
three different 7'6" three-piece kit blanks, described as follows:
To make 7-1/2' - 3-1/4 oz. for 14/64 and 10/64 ferrules. 4/64 Tip Top. To make 7-1/2' - 3-3/4 oz. for 15/64 and 10/64 ferrules. 4-1/2 / 64 Tip Top. To make 7-1/2' - 4 oz. for 16/64 and 11/64 ferrules. 5/64 Tip Top. You could check the ferrule sizes in your kit and see if there is any correlation. The cane in these glued-up sticks could be supplied as Grade 1, "Extra Select" or Grade 2, "Select." The cane could be ordered as either "brown tone" or "natural" (PHY was experimenting with mottle-flaming at this time, but I think that by "brown tone" he meant a more or less uniform color). It looks like there may be some pencil marks on the blanks indicating where snake guides should be placed. PHY offered to mark the guide spacings and turn the ends of the blanks to accept the ferrules, which has been done on this case. For small fees he would also install the ferrules and do a number of other little tasks. The kit builder could pretty much take up the work himself at whatever point he chose. It is too bad that there is no glued and shaped grip, or separate cork rings. Here's the odd thing about the missing grip, if we assume that the 1948 catalog is relevant. In 1948, for one price, PHY would glue and shape the cork grip and the mortised cork skeleton reel seat, with cap and reel band installed and supplied. You have a mortised reel seat with cap attached, and the ring, but no grip or separate corks. This makes me wonder whether a grip was supplied but got lost at some point during the past half-century. I assume there's also no rod winding silk or other items beyond what you have shown. Perhaps other items were lost at some point, or were never supplied. So as usual with PHY, we have some possible answers (or misleading guesses) and a lot more questions. A couple of times you've asked, "What's it worth?" I don't know. I don't know whether anybody knows. As it is, this grouping is a little bit of history, valuable in and of itself, showing at least part of the stuff PHY sent out when a customer ordered kit rod materials. There's also the possibility of making up a rod from those materials, thus fulfilling the result that was intended for them when PHY shipped them out to the customer. A new "Ace" grade rod from the late 1940's would have looked like the lower rod in the photo below, except that yours would have had the cap and ring as shown in the upper rod (and would have been three-piece, of course). Hopefully this is helpful and my guesses haven't led us too far astray.
Quashnet's Paul H. Young Rod Database has photos and descriptions of 465 PHY Co. rods, plus catalogs, accessories,
etc. Thank you to all who continue to send me PHY rod photos and info.
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mtn |
re | #11 | ||
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Quashnet,
Talking with another maker who knows alot about tapers and more than I that the closest taper he found of Youngs to these dimensions was a light version of a Martha Marie and this rod is lighter. There are quite a few water marks on the blank so it may have been a #2 select, if it helps in identifing over all the glue that was used is not dark or visable. The pencil marks are mine from when I measured the rod. We did not get any thread with the rod and my guess is it came with a grip and thread that was lost over time. Definately the rod is going to be finished out and will be fished as was intented. Thanks so much for the information you were a great help. Best, Mike |
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Finnoinc |
#12 | |||
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That is going to be a fine looking rod my friend. I am rather intrigued to see something by Paul H. Young on this site. I have recently come across a Paul H.
Young original "PHY" vise #44 of 62... I think that's what it says... it is not in front of me. Anyway, I love finding little gems like my vise
and your un-built rod. Good luck with it.
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pcg |
#13 | |||
I am rather intrigued to see something by Paul H. Young on this site.Finn, PHY is discussed frequently here. Quashnet maintains a database of PHY rods--the most complete on the web, I assume--and that is available on the forum. Run a search for Young and numerous threads will appear. This forum is the epicenter of Young information & a good place to hang out if you're interested in Young.
Last Edited By: pcg 07/17/2009 08:29.
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quashnet |
#14 | |||
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Click on this link, Finn,
to see a highest-grade Paul H. Young "Sportsman" vise from circa 1933, owned by "reelsmith." I'm not familiar with a serial-numbered
run of PHY vises, and would love to see photos of your vise, and learn more about it. There's always something new to learn about Paul Young.
Clicking the link below for the PHY database pages will give you access to what I believe is currently the largest publicly-accessible collection of information about the Paul H. Young Co.
Quashnet's Paul H. Young Rod Database has photos and descriptions of over
465 PHY Co. rods, plus catalogs, accessories, etc. Thank you to all
who continue to send me PHY rod photos and info.
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Finnoinc |
#15 | |||
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I don't know anything about the vise either. It was given to me along with all issues of the first two years of trout unlimited Quarterly. They are an
awesome read for me as I was born and raised in Michigan. I'm only 22 years old so seeing the discussions of my local streams 50 years ago is very cool.
I'll take some pictures of the Vise and post them on the site after the weekend. Thanks!
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