Step down ferrule confusion?

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Lewis B	Step down ferrule confusion?		Lead	[-]
Posts: 39 06/29/2009 12:34	Tags : None I read alot of archives and learned alot but I stiil got crosseyed and a head ache. I bought a kit from G.W. with stepdown ferrules. the openings for the cane on both male& female are the same measurement, but down inside the male the hole gets smaller (maybe 2/64th). Heres the question. do I taper the end of the cane to fit inside the smaller part and leave the outer part whole, or do I olny put the cane in as far as the first (bigger) hole. I hope I`m making not confusing anyone any more than I am. Lewis
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tapermaker		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 779 06/29/2009 12:59	you reduce the end to fit into the smaller opening ,seating the ferrule station all the way to the bottom of the ferrule. you will notice that the ferrule is a tube within a tube.this means that the end of the lower smaller tube is slide into and soldered about 3/16th of an inch farther up the ferrule than the step on the outside so when marking the cane for the transition you will need to pay attention to the inside measurement.
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oldfishbrain		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1345 06/29/2009 15:43	Lewis B: Tapemaker gave you proper advice. Without wanting to high-jack your thread, I have a couple of related questions that I thought you might want to hear answered: 1. I like the looks of stepdowns and use then in preference to the SS style. In discussions about stepdown ferrules I have heard the argument that they reduce the bamboo strength at the ferrule joint because you have to take down the bamboo in fitting it to the slide part of the male. How could that be, when in fact that part of the cane is surounded by the metal wall of the slide which in turn is supported by the wall of the female? The diameter of the male above the slide is exactly the same as that of the female. 2. Why is it that in a large number of classical taper rods that use stepdowns, in spite of the fact that these two diameters are the same there is a very significant drop in the taper flat-to-flat measure above and bellow the ferrule? This is particularly evident in the ferrule of two piece rods and in the tip to mid ferrule of three piece rods. Can anyone enlighten me? Maker of light line nodeless bamboo fly rods avardanis@sympatico.ca
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tapermaker		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 782 06/29/2009 16:49	i think the drop from one section to the other can be explained by it being an adjustment to make up for the stiffer ferrule area vs. the normal flex if this area was cane..by droping the diameter 10-15 thous. it seems to even out in practice.
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AJ Bamboo		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 829 06/30/2009 03:15	at the risk of offending the perpetually offended i offer a few points 1) there are at least 4 easily recognized types of 'step' ferrule(tubing,drawn,bar stock,montague) 2) there is at least 6 different materials possible(duronze,aluminum,nickel silver,brass,plated brass) this should lead one to believe that 'step' ferrules is not a very specific term. top quality rods are made with 'leonard' style that has the same basic diameter for both male and female with the step being 2/64 to the slide of the male. medium quality rods can be made with the above type of ferrule or often with a drawn nickel silver ferrule, these often exhibit the trait of the male being 1/64 smaller than the female and an additional 1 or 2/64 drop to the slide. poorer quality rods hold no interest for me at all so i do not care how they are ferruled. (although i have machined a set of Monty ferrules for a resto from barstock, you do not want to know how much that cost the customer) two notes about comparative strength 1) if well ferruled it makes no difference 2)if poorly ferruled it makes no difference golden era rods were commonly ferruled much tighter than is the practice today, a half 64th undersized was standard, and i have not noticed them breaking right and left. oddly they seemed to know what they were doing. the easiest example are dickerson tapers, the nominal ferrule designation was for the tip end of the rod and the butt end was commonly 1/2 64th over the tip designation to answer the question of 'why leonard style?'. after all, they are harder to manufacture and fit to the rod they are much more flexible, they are by no means rigid and flex with the rod action, they are lighter thus they have a lower impact on the rod action in 2 ways. a test from a few years ago was illuminating, ferrule styles from most flexible to most rigid leonard style short swiss standard swiss and tip over butt bamboo ferrules were almost the same and were much, much stiffer than the previous 2. so to answer Lewis's questions with my standard degree of bluntness 1) you have been fed a line of crap about the weakness of leonard ferrules and the touted strength of SS ferrules. a common problem with all things when you rely on 'conventional wisdom' 2) the old guys knew what they were doing and how to design a rod. ferrule drop IS important i hope no one is offended, as some thin skinned girlie men were last time i weighed in on this subject, by the 'off-putting' manner of information delivery. Last Edited By: AJ Bamboo 06/30/2009 03:17. Edited 1 time.
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Larry Swearingen		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 408 06/30/2009 08:05	Fantastic AJ ! I was thinking " Oh crap, here we go again." This thread or just AJ's reply should be put at the top as a "Stickie." Now we just need a conventional NAME for each type of "step down" ferrule. And a little drawing to go with each name. For the Granger or Dickerson type of drawn ferrule that has the male bamboo 1/64" smaller than the female bamboo part I would suggest "Taper Step Ferrule." Or maybe "Taper Drop Ferrule." This indicates that there is actually a "step down" in the taper of the bamboo blank across the ferrule. I think that "Leonard Type" is good for the conventional "necked male" ferrule that was the standard, except for the awful Montague Coke Bottle type, ferrule up until the Super Swiss type was invented. Didn't Reed Curry have some ferrule drawings on his web site ? Larry Swearingen Fort Wayne, IN NEw Hoosier
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OldCanerods		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 88 06/30/2009 08:25	The awful Montague coke-bottle or as I call them milk-bottle ferrules deserve their fame. However, I think that something was done at the factory to crack many of these ferrules. Don't know if it was lack of annealing of the brass after basic forming and/or if it involved some machine to ram the ferrules onto poorly matched ferrule stations. But so many of these ferrules were found to be cracked on unused rods. So I have wondered if properly installed that fewer would have cracked. Don't know, doesn't matter, it is was it is. Montague wasn't the only company to issue rods with crappy ferrules. Heddon had ferrules on their mid-level rods that are just as likely to crack. The low-end Heddons with rolled-welt ferrules were fine if compared to other rods out there and so too were the high-end hand-welted ferrule rods. But the rods with the more-or-less square welting ferrules suck nearly as much as the Monty stuff. Rods like the #125 model used this design. OBTW, Montague rods with straight-tube female ferrules, rolled or hand-welted, are unlikely to suffer from cracks. These rods are undervalued in my book. I too would like a data bank of ferrules. Would help ID old rods. AJ, I would hate to know the cost of that hand made Montague ferrule. I once thought about having some made for a rod and soon guessed that the national debt might be involved. I soon decided that working on that type of rod wasn't worth the effort.
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Lewis B		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 40 06/30/2009 08:53	Thanks folks, This is just the info I needed. Is there someone that knows of a book that might have lots of info on ferrules. I`m learning as I go and this site has been a great help, but I have alot to learn. Thanks again Lewis
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oldfishbrain		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1346 06/30/2009 13:56	A particular "thank you" to AJ for taking the time and effort to post his informative reply. I have already printed it out and filed it for future reference. Maker of light line nodeless bamboo fly rods avardanis@sympatico.ca
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OldCanerods		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 92 07/01/2009 20:08	oldfishbrain wrote: A particular "thank you" to AJ for taking the time and effort to post his informative reply. I have already printed it out and filed it for future reference. +1
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JE Dempsey	RE: Step Down Ferrule Confusion	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 15 07/04/2009 23:10	AJ You are the MAN--------The voice of common sense and Knowledge Jed
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