Empire "Pilot" Tackle Co. 2/2 7 1/2' W&M Trade Rod?

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stickleyboy	Empire "Pilot" Tackle Co. 2/2 7 1/2' W&M Trade Rod?		Lead	[-]
Posts: 35 06/28/2009 23:03	Tags : None I just picked this rod up on the bay. It's a 7 1/2' 2/2 "Pilot" from Empire Tackle Co. The remnant of a sticker on the handle says it's impregnated. The rod weighs 5.1 oz with one tip & 5.3 oz with the other tip. References to Empire Tackle Co. are scarce on the Forum. There have been a couple discussions of an Empire Westkill (see: http://clarksclassicflyrodforum.yuku.com/reply/128096#reply-128096 and http://clarksclassicflyrodforum.yuku.com/reply/120482#reply-120482) that refer to a brief reference in "page 109 in Dick Spurr and Michael Sinclair's book, "Colorado Classic Cane, [where] there's a short paragraph about the ETCo "Westkill" wherein Michael says "we found no one during our research who recalls ever seeing one of these rods". A description of the "Empire Westkill Fly Rod" is at the top of page 108 from a one page, ca 1946 catalog sheet from ~~Granger~~ W &M. It is described as "Two piece. Plastic impregnated. Scru-tite reel seat. Perfection guides. 8' length weighs 5 1/2 ozs. 8 1/2' length weighs 6 ozs."" I can't find any reference to a "Pilot" anywhere. Now, I'm hoping ya'll will tell me this is a 7633 equivalent ~~Granger~~ W & M trade rod. But as I have $67.99 in this rod, I can take any bad news you have to deliver. Is she worth 66 bucks? Could that be ~~granger~~ W &M green thread? thanks for your help, Jim Last Edited By: stickleyboy 07/02/2009 19:32. Edited 3 times.
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darrelll		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 141 06/29/2009 06:55	There's ZERO chance it was made by Granger or WM. The windings look like a Japanese rod, however, there seems to be quite a lot of wear on the tip tops which means either they were replaced with used tip tops or it might be a rare Japanese rod that could be actually fishable. The butt ferrule looks like it was replaced with a Monty type ferrule. Did you get your money's worth? I dunno, cast it, fish it and if you like it the answer is probably yes, if the rod breaks on your first hook up... then maybe not.
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Umpqua Beaver		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 67 06/30/2009 00:37	I've always thought the Empire's to be South Bend trade rods, but I don't know if they did any impregnating or not. My sometimes faulty memory tells me that Campbell attributed those rods to South Bend.
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TheMontyMan	Empire Pilot...	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 161 06/30/2009 01:29	The reel seat looks like a South Bend style to me. I'd guess it was re-wrapped. The primary tell is the snake guide added as a hook keeper. A lot of rebuilders use snake guides for a hook keeper. I've never seen an original production rod this way. Can you show us a picture or two of the labeling?? . . . Rex TheMontyMan
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OldCanerods		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 89 06/30/2009 08:30	Or maybe a H-I rod? They did impreg's rods and white shaft writing was their norm.
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stickleyboy		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 37 06/30/2009 13:57	Here's the signature. Compare it to the other Empire tackle company rods on the Board: http://clarksclassicflyrodforum.yuku.com/reply/136278#reply-136278. When these rods were listed no one actually took up the issue of whether they could actually be the lost granger trade rods referred to in Colorado Classic Cane. Anyone care to weigh in on that issue? Does the lack of granger characterisitics on this "Pilot" undermine the granger claim for the "Westkill"- which has many similarities to this rod? I agree about the rewrapped hookkeeper. The ghosting underneath is a dead giveaway too. Does someone else have a picture of a this realseat on a southbend? It does look like a SB interpretation of a granger reelseat. These are the pictures from the listing, so I can't tell you if the color variation you see is a lighting effect. Some wraps appear to be a nice granger green. Others do appear a horrific japanese green. Darelll, I said I could take bad news, but the japanese attribution really hurt...
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2 Bead Pupa	EMPIRE " WESTKILL " TACKLE	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 295 06/30/2009 21:01	Jim , I've posted in one of mentioned threads, and here's what I know : My rod has the same decal style as yours but only " WESTKILL " TACKLE are left. After seeing yours, I'd say that mine used to have EMPIRE before the " WESTKILL " . Your cork grip looks just like mine as do your ferrules and hookeeper. The seat on mine is way different in that it's a downlocking screw type with a black plastic spacer. The hookeeper on mine is a snake guide and the wraps are black and gold. It's 7' 9" long and casts a 6wt. nicely ( both sections measure 47" ). Also it has an agatine stripper guide. Thanks for posting the pictures. Oh, and about your seat, yes it looks South Bend - ish . I posted pictures of a co - workers rod about 3 years ago that had a similar seat and yet the rod was twisted ( very mysterious ). Anyway, I'd say that our rods were Granger made. Why not ? Russ Last Edited By: 2 Bead Pupa 06/30/2009 21:03. Edited 1 time.
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bluejayee		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 797 07/02/2009 04:00	Hi Guys, All Phillipson/Granger ferrules were 'rolled welt.' Jay Edwards
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PaducahMichael		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 731 07/02/2009 15:24	As stated by Jay, I believe all Granger and Phillipson ferrules were a type of rolled welt. The shape of Granger and Phillipson ferrules IS suggestive of a separate welt, but I'm sure they were drawn from a single piece of NS and did not have "hand-soldered welts". I'm not familiar enough with machining processes to know exactly HOW the welts were "rolled". While we're on the topic of Empire rods, the reason the Empire rods SEEMED to be connected with Granger is that they appeared on a page in ONE W&M rod catalog along with W&M Granger Rods. It is my belief - and a fairly well educated one - that the Empire Rods were being sold by W&M as trade rods prior to the acquisition of the Granger name, and the ones that appeared in the catalog WITH Granger rods were the last of the stock being sold off. The Empire Rods had NO other connection to Granger. The one pictured above has a definite South Bend look to it. The "Westkill", as a two piece impregnated rod makes me think of H-I. Also, though these rods carried the name Empire, I believe they were NOT connected to the classic Empire Tackle Company c. 1910's, which was often referred to as "ETco". And let's stop referring to Granger Trade Rods. There were none. Ever. Any. Zero. Nada. There WERE a few Wright & McGill Trade rods - Old Faithful and Aladdin - but they were NOT Grangers. They were W&M. Big difference. The New Divine Rods Last Edited By: PaducahMichael 07/02/2009 15:32. Edited 1 time.
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stickleyboy		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 40 07/02/2009 19:36	Thanks for clearing things up, Michael. Your story makes sense. And I do promise to never say Granger trade rod. best, Jim Last Edited By: stickleyboy 07/02/2009 20:13. Edited 1 time.
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jz2		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 263 07/02/2009 21:43	Hey Michael. when you get that granger with the split female ferrule would it be possible to cut it lengthwise to see how the ferrule was formed? the welt certainly looks machined under high magnification. (15x) but I'm not a metalurgical expert. Could they have rolled it like a SB type ferrule, then machined or stamped it?
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stickleyboy	A South Bend 290?????	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 41 07/03/2009 09:39	I think my rod is likely a South Bend 290. Compare my female ferrule and tip tops to the 290 below. That looks pretty close to me. But what about the impregnated issue?? I'd say, probably, impregnated marketing. Here's the SB290 handle and males, again, close: (I'd say -IMHO- the Pilot grip is more attractive than the Comficient). The cane color is right too. This Southy brought $190. Another with darker cane recently brought $255. So, I'm going to tell my wife (if/when she finds out I bought this beauty) that my $66 was a *responsible* investment and, also a *service* to the bamboo community to protect an obscure piece of rod history . thanks, everyone, for your help, Jim Oh yeah, both Empire-Westkill and SB290 owners have said on the Board that their rods are especially fast tapers, perhaps, another reason for an SB290 attribution
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PaducahMichael		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 732 07/04/2009 18:58	Yes, that does indeed appear to be a SB 290. The odd green wraps are understandable - it was nearly impossible to find the proper B/O Jasper thread for a long, long time - and then again, maybe the rod's owner at that time just happened to like green wraps. The New Divine Rods
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OldCanerods		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 103 07/09/2009 10:53	I pulled out my own 7' Empire (2/1). It is varnished not impregnated. Mine is labeled as EMPIRE "NYMPH" TACKLE (reads from tip toward seat) and has all black wraps with the extended spiral from main wrap out to a solid end of about 6 - 8 turns. There's a spiral mid section wrap on the butt section like the above rod too. It does not appear to have been refinished. Hookkeeper is a snake guide and there is a snake plus striper guide on the butt section. Reelseat is downlock with threaded plastic spacer and heavy krurled nut for the detached sliding ring, cap is stamped with stud nail 180 out from the pocket and is pure H-I as are the ferrules. (IMHO) My rod's ferrule do not have twin bands above the wrap. It came with a 2/2 bag and the bag appears to be H-I in design - being very dark brown/green color with red thread stiching plus one remaining orange tie string. Last Edited By: OldCanerods 07/09/2009 10:57. Edited 2 times.
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Empire "Pilot" Tackle Co. 2/2 7 1/2' W&M Trade Rod?

Empire "Pilot" Tackle Co. 2/2 7 1/2' W&M Trade Rod?

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