F. E. Thomas early numbering system

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cwfly	F. E. Thomas early numbering system		Lead	[-]
Posts: 536 12/11/2007 17:41	Tags : None I am interested in the early numbering system for F. E. Thomas rods - that is, the rods that often have intermediates and only a number on the bottom of the buttcap with no letters. I am aware of two views of what these numbers mean (of course, there may be many other ideas I simply haven't heard about). One theory is that the number signifies in what order the rod was produced during a given unidentified year. My only skepticism about his theory is that most of numbers I have seen have been fairly low. Another theory, I believe, is that the number relates to either the cap and reel seat metalwork on a rod or perhaps some combination of the rod, the grip and the reel seat. I thought that with some input regarding various rods the answer to this question might reveal itself through a pattern. If there is no apparent pattern, then the first theory may well be the correct one. Comments and additions would be appreciated. For example, I have seen: #1 - 8' 3/2 Special Brown Tone, cedar with sliding band; cigar. w/ intermediates. Blued. #5 - 9' 3/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; half wells. w/ intermediates. Blued. #6 (or #9) - 8' 3/2 Special, cedar with sliding band; cigar. w/ intermediates. Not blued. #8 - 8 ½' 3/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; half wells. w/ intermediates. Not blued. #8 - 8 ½' 3/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; half wells. w/ intermediates. Not blued. #36 - 10 ½' 3/2 Special, n/s sliding band; cigar. No intermediates. Not blued. #120 - 8' 2/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; cigar. No intermediates. Not blued #158 - 8' 3/2 Bangor, cedar with sliding band; cigar. Intermediates. Not blued Any additions to this list, or any other thoughts, might help in deciphering the number code without a special ring. Thanks, Charlie Last Edited By: cwfly 12/15/2007 15:11. Edited 1 time.
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firehole		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3094 12/11/2007 21:22 Local user	G-67 8' 2/2 5wt. Browntone all cork w/sliding band , blued hardware ,with original labeled tube and green bag w/hanging tag marked BT Dry Fly G-67-67th rod made in the year 1949(approximate date). Dennis Last Edited By: firehole 12/11/2007 21:33. Edited 2 times.
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pvansch1		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3017 12/11/2007 21:56 Moderator	Mine is a Special 8'6" 3/2 with Olive wraps tipped gold. All cork grip and reel seat with down locking sliding band, no bluing, no intermediates. The number on the end of the butt cap I'm going to say is a 6 as it has a dot below the closed loop like you would write a 6 . Medium actioned using a Thebault DT4 silk. Pete
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rocketman	An update on the significance of the stampings on the butt cap of F. E. Thomas rods	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 51 12/12/2007 01:23	This is from a post I made on this subject before the forum was switched over to Yuku An update on the significance of the stampings in the butt cap of the Thomas rods. I have three Thomas Browntones (1) 7'6", 3 piece stamped with the number 35, (2) 8'0", 2 piece stamped with number H244 and (3) 8'6", 3 piece stamped with number dot130. I corresponded with Marty Keane about the meaning of the symbols and numbers and this in essence was Marty's reply: The rod will have a number along with a letter or symbol (square, triangle or dot). The symbols and letters all indicate a specific year of manufacture and the number is the number in the original Thomas rod records of the rod. The problem being that Fred Thomas from roughly 1902/03 when he went on his own producing rods would start every year on January 1^st with serial number 1 and then continue numerically until the last rod of that year with nothing but the serial number in evidence on the butt cap. The next year would start all over again with serial number 1. In 1937 he started using letters or symbols together with the serial number and they started keeping records for every rod until the company closed in 1958 and it was sold to Sam Carlson. If the rod is stamped with only a serial number it was manufactured prior to 1937 and there are no company records on the rod. If it has a letter or symbol along with the serial number, the rod is recorded in the company records and Marty can give you that information. He either has the original company records or he has a copy (I didn't think to ask that question). Marty can be reached at the Classic Rods & Tackle, Inc. P.O. Box 288 Ashley Falls, MA 01222 (413) 229-7988 I understand that Marty has some health problems and may or may not be answering correspondence. Marty looked up the company records on my rod H244 and sent me a photocopy of the company record. The rod was completed on 6/4/1941 and was sold to the Kirkland Brothers, a substantial sporting goods store. The rod is described as an 8' Browntone, 2 piece, dry fly with a Hardy locking seat, Payne grip and it's wraps are dark brown with a touch of red accent. The rod has a finished weight of 4 7/8 ounces and was shipped on 4/13/1942. My rod has the original tag and …bingo, everything matches. I have not checked the 8'6" rod with Marty. I hope this helps to clear up this question on the Thomas rods and if anyone else has any input, please post it. Bob Those old fishermen: They're slow-moving and crabby and some of them talk to themselves, but they can catch trout. John Gierach - Standing in a River Waving a Stick http://www.vintageflyfisher.com Last Edited By: rocketman 12/12/2007 01:28. Edited 2 times.
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baunvivant		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 115 12/12/2007 02:47	Gosh, I think mine is numbered 50. Its an 8' Dirigo. It is being restored by Dwight Lyons so I can't double check.
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cwfly		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 537 12/12/2007 10:33	Thank you all for posting suggestions and numbers with descriptions. So far, I see no pattern developing to suggest the numbers relate to the style of the rods. Charlie
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Sal Fontinalis		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 420 12/12/2007 12:45	Charlie, thanks for heading up the effort. I'll post some more info tonight or tomorrow. I think most of my rods are pre-1937.
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Sal Fontinalis		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 424 12/14/2007 09:19	7'6" 3/2 Special - no number stamping only a bullseye, no HK, cedar with a sliding band, cigar, red and black wraps with intermediates, not blued 7'6" 3/2 Brown Tone - "4", HK, cedar(?) with a sliding band, cigar, red wraps, intermediates, blued, long tang tip tops 8' 3/2 Special - "30", HK, all cork grip with a sliding band, cigar, gold wraps, intermediates, not blued, long tang tip tops 8' 3/2 Special - "30", HK, all cork grip with a sliding band, half wells, olive and scarlet wraps, not blued 8' 3/2 Special wet fly - "33", HK, cedar with a sliding band, cigar, olive and gold wraps, not blued I think all of the above rods are from the 1920s-1930s with the 7'6" Browntone from maybe even the teens. Some interesting similarities between all the rods posted but not apparent trends. There has to be some rhyme or reason to it??
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cwfly		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 547 12/14/2007 09:46	Matt, Thanks for the additions to the list. I have a couple of recent Lang's catalogs I will try and go through over the weekend. I remain surprised at how low the numbers generally seem to run which would argue against an annual sequential numbering system. Charlie
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cwfly	Update	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 548 12/15/2007 13:53	This is a consolidated list of the above with some additions from the 11/07 Lang's catalog (with lot number noted). Based solely upon this small sample, the low numbers tell me that the rods were not, with the number on the butt cap, simply numbered sequentially on an annual basis. I changed from the above a possible #6 to be #9 since the dot is underneath the 9. Rank speculation, and additions to the list are welcome. Unnumbered 7'6" 3/2 Special - only a bullseye, no HK, cedar with a sliding band, cigar, red and black wraps with intermediates, not blued #1 - 8' 3/2 Special Brown Tone, cedar with sliding band; cigar. w/ intermediates. Blued. #4 - 7'6" 3/2 Brown Tone, HK, cedar(?) with a sliding band, cigar, red wraps, intermediates, blued, long tang tip tops #5 - 9' 3/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; half wells. w/ intermediates. Blued. #5 (L.11.07.1249) 9' 3/2 Mahogany Special, sliding band; half wells. w/intermediates. Blued. #6 (dot under number)- 8 ½' 3/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; grip - ?. no intermediates. Not blued. #8 - 8 ½' 3/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; half wells. w/ intermediates. Not blued. #8 - 8 ½' 3/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; half wells. w/ intermediates. Not blued. #8 (L. 11.07.1308) - 9' 3/1 Special, screw down walnut, cigar, no intermediates.Not blued. #9 (dot under number) - 8' 3/2 Special, cedar with sliding band; cigar. w/ intermediates. Not blued. #30 - 8' 3/2 Special - HK, all cork grip with a sliding band, cigar, gold wraps, intermediates, not blued, long tang tip tops #30 - 8' 3/2 Special - HK, all cork grip with a sliding band, half wells, olive and scarlet wraps, not blued #31 (L.11.07.1286) 9' 3/2 Dirigo, NS seat w/sliding band, cigar; no intermediates, not blued. #31 (L.11.07.1772) 8 ½' 3/2 Special, mahogany w/ sliding band, cigar, w/intermediates; not blued. #33 - 8' 3/2 Special wet fly - HK, cedar with a sliding band, cigar, olive and gold wraps, not blued #36 - 10 ½' 3/2 Special, n/s sliding band; cigar. No intermediates. Not blued. #120 - 8' 2/2 Special, all cork with sliding band; cigar. No intermediates. Not blued #158 - 8' 3/2 Bangor, cedar with sliding band; cigar. Intermediates. Not blued #386 (L.11.04.1771) 8' 3/2 Special, Mahogany w/ sliding band, cigar, no intermediates, not blued. I am adding 4 more rods from the collection of Jan Nystrom as can be seen on the internet. # 32. Special Brown Tone, 9', 3 /2 The hanging tag reads "Thomas Special Browntone 9' 5 3/8 ounces". I believe this rod is for a 5 or 6 weight line. The tube is the high quality brass capped Thomas rod tube with distinctive blue and yellow "Thomas Rod" logo. # 391 Brown Tone, 7', 2 /2 , 32 oz(99g).. Brown silks with olive accents. Delicate small cigar grip with downlocking seat on mahogny and a swelled butt. # 419 Special Streamer, 9', 5 oz(g), 3 /2 . Original brass capped aluminum tube and deep green bag (bag has small iron‑on patch at top of mid pocket). Down locking ‑ wood insert reel seat with AF.E. THOMAS, SPECIAL, BANGOR, ME@ stamped in butt cap with usual surround. Amber colored agate stripper. Typical Thomas hanging ring keeper. Oversized/heavy duty snakes. German Silver ferrule plug for mid female ferrule. Deep maroon original wraps. A past refinisher has very carefully removed the original varnish from between the original wraps and, in my opinion, refinished the rod with a tung oil finish. The rod is quite attractive and certainly presentable as is but really should be re‑varnished with a good high gloss varnish including the wraps. Beautiful straw colored cane. Good tight Thomas ferrules. Straight with beautiful smooth and even action. A great and important rod. # 8. Special, 82' (??) 3 /2 , 4.9 oz(140g). Small cigar grip, all N/S reelseat, S/B and guides. Built in the late 20's right after they quit the intermediate wraps. The rod was factory rewrapped in the 40's. Wraps are black and gold jasper with a red color preserver over the ferrule wraps. All ferrules intact and tight. All pieces are full length, no sets and no hook drags. Comes in original bag with cane tip tube where the cap is missing. Is there a pattern? I think so, although the rod above with "#419" is different. Otherwise, all the rods have single numbers or are in the 100s, in the 30's or 300's. No teens, twenties, 40's, 200's etc. Lots of choices as to the meaning but I don't think flat consecutive annual numbering is one of them. A code for retailers for whom orders were being filled? For who worked on the rod? Beats me. Last Edited By: cwfly 12/16/2007 13:31. Edited 1 time.
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Short Tip		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 831 12/21/2007 18:26 Moderator	I've always thoght the early numbers are saying something about the rod itself, but I have no idea what. Here's a few more - 7'6" 3pc marked "Wm. Read & Sons, Boston F.E. Thomas Maker" It's an early fairy style rod, small grip, C&R with cedar spacer, has all Special hardware but the earlier drawn, cut and soldered male ferrules.No hook keeper. Full intermediates, snake stripper. Has the numeral 8 stamped on the buttcap. 7'9" 3pc Mahogany. No intermediates or signs that they were ever there. FE hook keeper soldered to an older style flattish winding check. Snake stripper, blued C&R over what looks like stained cedar, Has the numeral 8 stamped on the buttcap. 7'6" 3pc Special. Appears to be early 30's vintage. (Based on the fact that it is a "modern" style Thomas but has the old numbers) No intermediates. C&R seat over butternut spacer. Standard Special hardware, hook keeper soldered to the later style knurled winding check, agate stripper. Has the numbers "6 32" on one line (small space between the 6 and the 32, intentional or not) and a triangle under the numbers. I'm sure based on this new info someone can decipher everything! Last Edited By: Short Tip 12/21/2007 18:30. Edited 1 time.
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fishnbanjo		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5143 12/21/2007 19:12 the Canefather	All the one's I've seen, or owned, that have the same number, i.e. 8, 6 or whatever have the same band be it a slider or screw. banjo Visit my website: Fishnbanjos Place
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cwfly		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 556 12/24/2007 10:05	Short Tip and Banjo, Thanks to you both. When I think I see a pattern, then something gets in the way. Merry Christmas to all, Charlie
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bamboocollector11	Thomas numbering system	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 334 12/24/2007 14:30	Here are 4 more: 10' 3/2 Dirigo - no numbers 9' 3/2 Special - no numbers 8 1/2' 3/2 Special - 8 9' 3/3 Brown Tone - H8 Ed
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andre49		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 816 12/24/2007 20:32 Deeply Shallow	I have a 8 ft Special with 446 on the butt cap. If what's above is correct it would be a pre 38(yuear) rod.
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Soft Hackle		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 941 12/25/2007 14:36	I have a 7'6" 2pc. Special with a G on the buttcap, below which is 16 and a backwards 3 if read directly under the G, or 39 and an upside down 1 if read over the G. Obviously an encrypted code for security purposes initiated during the McCarthey era.
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cwfly		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 558 12/27/2007 09:16	Thanks to you all. Any chance you could add a bit more detail about the reel seats and intermediates? Thanks, Charlie
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F. E. Thomas early numbering system

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