Snake Guide Weights -- Update

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eastprong

Snake Guide Weights -- Update

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Posts: 287

02/15/2008 23:36

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I acquired some PacBay single foot wire snakes and have added them to the comparison:

Size	Snakebrand	Lite Wire	Reg Wire	SF
#4	2.7	2.4	4.2
#3	1.9	2.0	3.0	2.2
#2	1.6	1.3	2.7	2.0
#1	1.3	1.0	1.7	1.5
#1/0	1.0	0.8	1.6	1.2
#2/0	0.8		1.2	1.1

They're slightly heavier than the Snakebrand or the Lite Wire, but you make up for the weight because you only need one wrap. How much weight? I weighed the Size A silk and 5 coats of varnish it took for one foot of a #2 Snakebrand snake on a 0.325" dowel: 1.3 grains. Assuming this is the midpoint of the wrap weights (half are heavier, half are lighter) and also assuming 8 total snakes guides on a rod ( 2 #3, 2 #2, 2#1,a nd 2 # 1/0) the total weight savings of the single foots over Snakebrand is 8 grains. That's less than 1/50 of an ounce.

I'll leave it up to you if you think 1/50 of an ounce, distributed over the length of a rod, has an effect on rod performance (and can actually be detected by a caster as "lighter").

I also weighed what I think is the lighest SF ceramic: a Fuji TSG, titanium frame, SIC ring, #6. It's 2.4 grains, and would be used roughly where a #1 snake would be used. That would be a weight savings of 0.2 grains (considering wraps) over a Snakebrand #1, or 1.6 grains over a whole rod (less than 1/250 oz.).

Additional data are welcome.

--Rich

Last Edited By: eastprong 02/20/2008 09:23. Edited 1 time.

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SnooKen

#1

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Posts: 435

02/16/2008 09:43

Rich;

Thanks for the effort on your part. The data is much appreciated and eye-opening as well.

Ken

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PaducahMichael

Philosophical query.....

#2

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Posts: 327

02/19/2008 23:12

The information above is very interesting, and I certainly appreciate and salute the time and energy expended in gathering it. BUT...

Why do we worry about the weight of a rod down to grains....

Then slap on a heavy-a$$ed reel just because we like the way it looks? You seldom hear anything about the weight of a reel - or a line - or backing. Yet we're trying to save grains in the weight of the rod! Why not use only half a fly line- and no backing on these large arbor reels? Just THINK of the weight you'd save! It might run into grams instead of grains.

Does this behavior strike anyone else as odd?

What a bunch of woosies! When a few ounces or so either way starts mattering, it's time to take up a different sport.

But that's just my opionion.

"If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, where is the man who has enough to be out of danger?"

Last Edited By: PaducahMichael 02/19/2008 23:19. Edited 1 time.

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aparramoure

#3

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Posts: 1226

02/20/2008 05:22

I hate to tell you but the guys that build graphite,,,,,,, the go as far as weighing the guides, wrapping them, finishing them and taking off the wraps and weighing that as well. One fellow has developed a thread less wrap !! By using just a finish,,no thread at all, is able to secure the guides on a spinning rod. Has even tried to dislodge it and can not. That is a little radical. But I think lots of guys are concerned with weight,,, hollow built rods, etc..........but the fish don't care.
Have a look:
http://www.rodbuilding.org/photopost/showgallery.php?mcats=all&si=THREADLESS%20WRAP&what=allfields&name=&when=&whenterm=&condition=and

Last Edited By: aparramoure 02/20/2008 05:26. Edited 1 time.

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eastprong

#4

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Posts: 289

02/20/2008 09:23

Actually, it only takes about 10 seconds to zero the scale and weigh a guide, no trouble atoll.

I did this 'cuz I thought that the guides I use on trout rods (Snakebrand and PacBay lite wire) were light and that the alternatives didn't offer any weight advantage. Technically, there is a difference but my conclusion is that the difference is so small as to be undetectable. Others can interpret the data differently, but I'm satisfied, there's no weight advantage. (There may be other reasons to use SFs, especially the ceramics.)

I have to correct the only thread wrap test I did. It was a #2 Snakebrand snake and the dowel size was 0.325", which means quite a bit of surface area. The weight of the thread alone was 0.4 grains and the varnish was 0.9 grains. A threadless wrap here would be inconsequential.

--Rich

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dt4wt

#5

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Posts: 9

02/20/2008 09:24

I agree with Paducah Michael we are turning into a bunch of woosies. My father who did manual labor would come home grap his rubber waders that wieghed pounds heavyer than todays breathables,a 9ft bamboo rod that was in the 5-6 ounce class, wore wool clothing, and we would be out until darkness chased us home. I never heard him complain about how heavy the equipment was. Today we are taller, stronger, better fed, and healther and we quibble about an extra grain or two. I belive its just a marketing tool to get us to open the wallet for new gear that comes out every year. Larry

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mer

#6

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Posts: 2798

02/20/2008 09:34

But that 1.6 grains represents 1.3% of a nominal 4wt line. This means you can cast about 5 inches less.

The north side of my town faced east, and the east was facing south

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ShenRods

#7

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Posts: 86

02/20/2008 10:22

Michael touched on the silly part of the weight issue. - - People also want to put "classic" NS hardware on the rod while wanting light guides. I am finishing a rod and it is to have a down locking reelseat since it is a big water rod - 8' 6" 6wt. The choice was between either a REC NS hardware with inset which 1.385oz or Struble AL seat which weighs 0.87oz! - we went with the AL since the finished rod blank with grip & guides, varnish weighed in at just under 3.1oz. BTW the prototype rod with cork insert and just two stainless steel bands weighed in at only 3.395oz total (of course it was hollowed with bamboo ferrule) but still easy to swing all day long.

The difference the choice of reel seat can bump a rod weight dramatically & throw in a clunker of a reel will make with a rod downright heavy regardless of guides. This comparison throws around onces vice grams. So it silly to worry about minute weight of a feather on once end of a rod when they stick a boat anchor on the other end. You need to talk about the entire rod and all components - once people start accepting AL reel seats as "classic" - after all my original Dickerson 861711-D has one - so does my Gene Edwars and Garrison 201 all have AL. At some point we got to get past "pretty" rods with sexy components and get down to functional fishing rods.

Chris

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PaducahMichael

#8

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Posts: 330

02/20/2008 18:35

mer wrote:
But that 1.6 grains represents 1.3% of a nominal 4wt line. This means you can cast about 5 inches less.

So stand 5 inches closer, and everything will be just fine!

"If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, where is the man who has enough to be out of danger?"

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PaducahMichael

#9

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Posts: 331

02/20/2008 18:40

dt4wt wrote:
I agree with Paducah Michael we are turning into a bunch of woosies. My father who did manual labor would come home grap his rubber waders that wieghed pounds heavyer than todays breathables,a 9ft bamboo rod that was in the 5-6 ounce class, wore wool clothing, and we would be out until darkness chased us home. I never heard him complain about how heavy the equipment was. Today we are taller, stronger, better fed, and healther and we quibble about an extra grain or two. I belive its just a marketing tool to get us to open the wallet for new gear that comes out every year. Larry

Yes, Larry, but we grew up watching John Wayne movies.......these fellas today are watching.....CG heroes. We had better role models. Thank God John Wayne still lives on DVD.

"If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, where is the man who has enough to be out of danger?"

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mer

#10

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Posts: 2802

02/20/2008 18:41

PaducahMichael wrote:

mer wrote:
But that 1.6 grains represents 1.3% of a nominal 4wt line. This means you can cast about 5 inches less.

So stand 5 inches closer, and everything will be just fine!

The north side of my town faced east, and the east was facing south

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SnooKen

#11

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Posts: 449

02/20/2008 21:38

Michael; I am hurt and deeply angered by your insinuation that I am turning into a "woosie"! I'll have you know, sir, that I have been a confirmed and accredited Wuss for decades. "Turning into", the nerve!!

While I agree with the above stated opinions about the measurable weight differences between different guides and wraps being negligible compared to the overall weight of the rod and even more so compared to the rod/reel combined weight I still believe that what is significant is where that weight is located. Mass, momentum and inertia play a big part in how any flyrod casts. The more mass there is in the forward half of a rod the more momentum energy there will be at the end of a power stroke which needs to be very precisely dispelled at the end of the power stroke. IMO cane rods "cast themselves" due to their greater mass resulting in "self loading" as the casting stroke begins This allows for a nice slow smooth acceleration of the power stroke. The downside of cane comes at the end of the power stroke, with the "speed up and stop" when all that mass/momentum results in a longer period of tip oscillation than graphite with the resulting waves in the outgoing line. Seems to me that reducing mass in/on the blank is going to allow a quicker tip recovery and make a rod balance in the hand better with lighter reel and butt end hardware.

I'm considering asking Orvis to make me a hollowbuilt Battenkill with Helium charged core, carbon graphite guides superglued to the blank and titanium/balsa reel seat with nano-unobtanium rings. See, I told you I was a proud Wuss.

Ken

PS; Down South, here, the phrase is "Loose shoes, bright wussie and a warm place to knit."

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PaducahMichael

#12

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Posts: 337

02/21/2008 00:24

Well, Ken, you've managed to use an awful lot of big words, there, pard. I'll bet you thought you could confuse me with 'em, didn't you? Well, as you can tell from my avatar, I'm a graduate of LSU, and I know all about that stuff you were spoutin'.

"Momentum" : what makes you finish the six pack after promising to "just have a couple".

Which contributes to "Mass", a.k.a. that blob that makes it hard to buckle your belt (or tie your belt, as the case may be.)

The increase of "mass" is also what leads to "Inertia" which is when you've had enough "self loading" and can't get off the couch without help.

Down here, mon frere, we don't discuss the "power stroke" in general company. And I'm not even gonna address that "tip oscillation" thing. Some things are best kept private, even in these modern times. They teach us to be gentlemans here at HellSU.

I do, however, favor "quicker recovery" and my wife says the weight of my "butt end hardware" could use some reducing.

Now about those folks up at Orvis........I wouldn't be surprised if that helium charged core isn't on the horizon. It'll go well with that Trident technology. You can't fool me....I been to College!

"If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, where is the man who has enough to be out of danger?"

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Zenkoanhead

#13

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Posts: 1222

02/21/2008 11:38

As usual we are in agreement Ken. However, in a post that was lost, I indicated that bamboo tips, being heavier, are less effected by the weight of the guides. That *^&%$^&$#$ NS ferrule is another story. I have shortened a couple of blanks to create a staggered ferrule and this seems to help the problem. Don

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SnooKen

#14

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Posts: 450

02/21/2008 16:09

Michael there is no way in H--- I'd ever be able to confuse you about flyrods but if I can give you a grin once in awhile it is small payback for all the hours of enjoyment I've received reading your books and posts. Did ya' ever consider that the Tigers' stripes may have evolved to blend in with Calcutta cane? Everything's linked, eh?

Don; I'm with you on ferrules, whether cane or plastic rod they are an abominable contamination of what should be a pure spring lever. In a perfect world we would all have beautiful 1 piece rods waitng for us in the care of skilled ghillies wherever and whenever we chose to fish. I've been impresssed by J. Heddon's casting rod design with a shortened butt section to move the ferrule location away from the main prtion of the blank's springing section. Seems to me it would work equally well for 2-piece cane rods. Even in graphite rods I still strongly prefer a 2 piece rod over the now universal multi-section blanks.

And the only reason I can think of for us to often be in agreement is my ability to recognise superior judgment and experience when I see it.

Ken

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adam trahan

#15

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Posts: 91

02/22/2008 09:44

It's funny, the rings I see some guys wear are heavier than all the metal on a bamboo fly rod... I'm happy to read that someone is weighing guides. I'm not, and I don't think it matters all that much but to read about it was interesting. I enjoy people who forge ahead and are not afraid to be called a pussy, even if it is tongue in cheek. People who think outside of the box, the envelope or church, not for the sake of, they are the people who are advancing our craft. Although I enjoy making bamboo fly rods, I don't feel the need to be like you because you make them too. Especially now, with modern materials being so good, graphite rods having a ton of performance. I hope no one ever feels like they can't post their findings here because of peer pressure. This is one of the things about HUGE web sites I don't like, peer pressure and the homogenization of ideas due to it.

grassart studio

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Gnome

#16

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Posts: 1486

02/22/2008 10:10

King of the Gnomes

Rich Has confirmed with his graph what the gnome has said all along the "difference in weight is so negligible" as to be unnoticable by 99.99999% of all casters.

SiC's and cermets for me

heretic gnome 8-)

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