Why opt for a penta or quad?

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Marshall8	IMHO	#21	[url]	[-]
Posts: 743 08/05/2008 15:44	I have owned or cast only 1/2 dozen Quads that were nice casting rods so not a lot of experience. I lucked out getting a Druey hollowfluted Quad 8' 5wt 2/2 and 7' 3/4wt 2/2 that are very spectacular. For me the determining factor is how does it handle against all the other rods you can get your hands on. My 8'er stood the test of time for 5 years against ALL the competition until David VanBurgel made me an 8' Convex taper that is nodeless hex and not even hollowbuilt. Choose based on how it casts! Marshall p.s. I have posted the 8' Quad a couple of times for $750 and no one yet has asked to cast it. While I would like to use the Convex exclusively, the Quad is still an amazing fly rod.
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Aransas		#22	[url]	[-]
Posts: 26 08/05/2008 22:42	I had a conversation with Mario Wojnicki today, and I brought up some of the points from this discussion. Mr. Wojnicki is very much of the opinion that the most important factor in the performance/character of a rod is the taper. He definitely was of the opinion that the number of sides was relatively insignificant. I thought this was worth sharing since he is considered by many to be a "master of the craft". Last Edited By: Aransas 08/06/2008 09:38. Edited 1 time.
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oysterbamboo		#23	[url]	[-]
Posts: 203 08/05/2008 23:57	Mr. Wojnicki is very much of the opinion that the most important factor in the performance/character of a rod is the taper. He definitely was of the opinion that the number of sides was relatively insignificant. I would tend to agree. There are good and bad versions of quads, hexes, pentas, hollow, semi-hollow, blonde, oven tempered, impregnated, etc. etc. and the taper tells the tale every time... although it can be harder to promote as a sales benefit! Bill O. www.oysterbamboo.com
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creakycane		#24	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1758 08/06/2008 13:12	Piglegs wrote: That article seems to pick up on many points in the 'Theory of the six strip Rod' article written by Everett Garrison for the Field and Stream in April 1952 - it is reproduced at the back of the Garrison & Carmichael 'Masters Guide' reprint. Garrison talks about rod shear and lots of other technical terms that I didn't understand but cutting to the chase he concludes from his own examination of the theory and the engineering that '... although the five strip rod has a nominal advantage over the six strip rod, it is purchased at the disportionately high price of shortened rod life and risk of damage in use'. That is a very interesting comment, and one I would guess relaated to the stress that back seam is exposed to in a penta. So it may be a great design but one that cannot withstand as many cycles or knocks on the stream.....
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Piglegs		#25	[url]	[-]
Posts: 111 08/06/2008 14:22	Creakycane, I'm glad someone picked up on that comment from Garrison - after all he has developed a bit of a reputation as a rod builder over the years... It struck me too when I first read the article, and it has stayed with me. I assume he never dabbled with any other configurations apart from hex?
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mtm905		#26	[url]	[-]
Posts: 16 08/06/2008 15:03	With all due respect to Garrison, is there any data to support the idea that 5 sided rods will fail structurally? I am no engineer (actually I did drive a train for a few years does that count?) but it seems that a glue seam standing on edge as in a penta would be less likely to fail than one laying flat as in a hex.
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rsagebrush	Penta	#27	[url]	[-]
Posts: 507 08/06/2008 17:07	MTM905, I guess you qualify as an engineer. Toot Toot I have noted that common sense is sometimes not an engineers strong suit on many occasions. That is, there is what the numbers and drawings say it should be and in reality what it really is. Rather a black and white world with no room for greys. So lets see some failed Penta's already and prove Mr. Garrison was indeed correct.
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creakycane		#28	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1760 08/06/2008 17:40	Of all the common geometries, for a given moment of inertia of a rod, the penta will have the highest levels of strain for normal bending (ie, bending plane parallel to the face with the guides) and it will be located at the seam opposite the flat with the guides. There is some discussion of this in Don Phillips book on the Technology of Fly Rods (for quads, pentas and hexes). By how much? About 30% higher than a comparable quad, 20 % more than a hex. And their highest stresses are on faces rathe than on glue seams. Maybe of no practical significance. I've never heard of that penta seam failing in practice. Maybe with older glues? mtm905 - that is approx true about a quad being no stiffer across the diagnonal than across the flats - but in between those modes, it IS stiffer. This results in the feeling that a quad, when casting, wants to stay bending in-plane more than a comparable hex - by a bit. What a penta feels like I don't have enough experience with enough different pentas to really say. I can tell you I would not want to be the first to buy any design of a penta that had not been tried before, more so cautious tthan with a hex or quad design and especially with light line rods. One thing most engineers would agree on - arguements made with in-plane bending physics and static loading may bear some resemblance to transient out-of-plane motion and dynamical loading ----- or it may not. So it is certainly not black and white.
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ArcticCane		#29	[url]	[-]
Posts: 392 08/06/2008 18:48	I've done some break testing on penta sections and they have a tendency to first fail along the top apex during stress (assuming you're bending them with the apex on the outside of the bend, thumbs on the guide flat, as if you were fighting a fish). It isn't that the glue gave out, but rather that a small 'triangle' of power fibers at the top would pop and splinter or delaminate. This would usually happen well before the section would actually break or fully splinter. I thought I had some photos but can't find them now. However, with that said, I've landed a fair number of big fish on pentas and have never had one break on me during use. Chris
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creakycane		#30	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1761 08/06/2008 19:02	Thanks Chris - very interesting. Nothing like good old empiricism to add to my musing and opinion I can see how that sliver at the apex would sliver and pop in high tension. That's a slim area to be unde rstress with minimal supporting structure around it (unlike a quad or hex face). Again, maybe not relevant in practice - you see many big fsh in your neck, so I doubt most would have to worry. But why chance it ? and go rather with a hex or quad.....
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fishbum		#31	[url]	[-]
Posts: 174 08/06/2008 20:35	creakycane wrote: mtm905 - that is approx true about a quad being no stiffer across the diagnonal than across the flats - but in between those modes, it IS stiffer. This results in the feeling that a quad, when casting, wants to stay bending in-plane more than a comparable hex - by a bit. Any beam made up of a regular polygon will bend equally in all planes. Any difference in the bending from one plane to another is not from the profile of the beam. In the case of a bamboo rod, the difference in the strength of the individual strips making up that rod causes it to bend more in one plane than another. A weak or strong strip in a quad has a greater effect on the performance of that beam than in a beam or rod using more strips and hence the feeling of the rod bending in-plane. fishbum
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creakycane		#32	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1762 08/06/2008 21:04	Yes, Fishbum, you are right - but what I didn't say (I got distracted) was that since the powerfibers are nonuniform throughout the strip (and a good number near the surface, as in a good rod, even if all the strips are identical), the rod will tend to be stiffer when it leaves the normal bending mode, so it tends to stay in plane and will feel dialed in there.... Each strip is not a beam of uniform, homogenous cross section. Last Edited By: creakycane 08/07/2008 12:01. Edited 1 time.
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David Dornblaser		#33	[url]	[-]
Posts: 143 08/07/2008 11:31	ArcticCane wrote: I've done some break testing on penta sections and they have a tendency to first fail along the top apex during stress (assuming you're bending them with the apex on the outside of the bend, thumbs on the guide flat, as if you were fighting a fish). It isn't that the glue gave out, but rather that a small 'triangle' of power fibers at the top would pop and splinter or delaminate. This would usually happen well before the section would actually break or fully splinter. I thought I had some photos but can't find them now. However, with that said, I've landed a fair number of big fish on pentas and have never had one break on me during use. Chris, how much stress was applied when the penta sections failed? Have you done similar stress tests on hex and quad sections; and, if so can you compare the results? - David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead.
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ArcticCane		#34	[url]	[-]
Posts: 393 08/07/2008 18:57	Unfortunately David, it wasn't all that technical. I simply grabbed a couple sections and started to bend them until they would break. I tried it with my hands tighter and farther apart but I don't have any measurements on how much force it took to break. From breaking hex and quad sections as well I would guess that it took less force to get the penta apex to pop than it took for a hex or quad to break. That is mostly a hunch and partly has to do with having to continue bending and stressing the penta section after the initial pop before it completely broke or splintered. Again though, I've never had a problem on the stream so it could be one of those 'not quite as strong as X but stronger than it needs to be' deals. Chris
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David Dornblaser		#35	[url]	[-]
Posts: 145 08/07/2008 21:27	Thanks Chris. I know that you fish for big Alaska 'bows, salmon and steelhead with pentas. Have you fished saltwater with one of your pentas? If I can go back to the original question of this thread; and, let me ask it a little differently: does choosing a quad, penta, or hex configuration change the casting or fish fighting characteristics of a rod of the same taper, length; and, line weight? (assuming that you can something approaching the same taper across the three configurations). - David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead. Last Edited By: David Dornblaser 08/08/2008 09:57. Edited 1 time.
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bobbeegee		#36	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1866 08/08/2008 10:09	Sounds like a new thread to me. Bob
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rdsphoto		#37	[url]	[-]
Posts: 334 08/09/2008 13:45	From my experiences with a rod built as a hex and a rod built as a penta - both with the same Rate of Change and volume of bamboo in the taper -the Penta rod was about a half line weight stronger than the hex. Unfortunately I do not have any direct experience with finished quads to hex's or penta's other than a quad taper that I converted to the modified Pentalux design (quad strip with guides on it braced by two hex shaped 60 degree strips with two penta shaped strips on top) - as it is not really like any of the other shapes not being symmetrical it doesn't correlate. Obviously being bias I do find the different shapes to have subtle differences in fishing and casting characteristics but the underlying or primary influence is always the taper itself - that said I think certain tapers are better suited to different shapes - this would be the reason to opt for one as there are several makers out there who really seem to exemplify and maximize the unique characteristics of the Quad and the Penta - definitely worth checking out. Last Edited By: rdsphoto 08/09/2008 13:49. Edited 1 time.
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David Dornblaser		#38	[url]	[-]
Posts: 146 08/12/2008 13:35	I have a friend who has one of Bob Clay's cane spey rods. I spoke with Bob today about his River series Spey rods, http://www.riverwatchrods.com/rods.html , which he makes in both hex and penta configurations, both hollow-built. I asked him about the strength of the penta rods and he said that he has not had one break and that is with big BC steelhead and having a spey rod load the rod faster than the single-handed rod. I don't have a point other than I thought that this was interesting. His River Series rods sound very interesting. - David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead.
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Piglegs		#39	[url]	[-]
Posts: 112 08/12/2008 17:08	One thing that has occured to me since I first mentioned the Garrison article in this thread is that the glue which he used might not have been so good as our modern ones - perhaps with the passage of time his findings on the Penta design have been made redundant by new glue? After all, the practical findings of the forum members so far don't appear to bear out his theoretical findings on the penta design.
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fishbum		#40	[url]	[-]
Posts: 177 08/12/2008 23:56	The glue isn't the weakness in the penta design or any design using an odd number of strips. It is the apex oppisite the guide flat being so far from the neutral center. This has the effect of reducing the safety margin in the stress department. By operating closer to the maximum stress the bamboo can withstand you run a greater risk of exceeding that maximum stress. fishbum
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