Steel Planing Form Straightness

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leoniru	Steel Planing Form Straightness		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 08/10/2008 15:06	Tags : None Help! I need some commentary on the importance of absolute straightness in a set of used steel planing forms that I recently bought. Upon arrival I noticed that if one 'sights' down along the groove, it is evident that there is a minor but noticeable sweep in the milled groove, i.e. the forms are slightly bowed laterally over their length. Now as I beat myself up over having purchased used forms ( I very much doubt that the seller is going to refund my money, you know caveat emptor and all that ) I'm wondering if this slight bow renders them useless, and if it does, is there a way to straighten them, or do I just accept the fact that I've been boned? Obviously I am just beginning to gather the required tools for blank building --- I've never built a blank before. It seems to me that as the individual bamboo strips are flexible, final section straightening ater glue-up is what really matters, but as I'm an absolute newbie, I'm not sure. Seems to me that the forms should produce accurate angles but again, they are not super straight. Are absolutely straight final milling forms required to work with an inherently flexible material? leoniru
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saguache	Forms	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 243 08/10/2008 15:32	I'd say if you paid more than $600 for them, you should ask for you money back. If the forms are out .010 or so of straight it won't make a huge of difference if its over the full length of the form. You can block the ends & move the center with a block/shim to bring them straight while in use. I did that with the wood forms I use for rough planing. I do use the straightness & flatness of the form for sighting/straightening the blanks later on. My 2cents worth. Saguache
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leoniru		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2 08/10/2008 15:46	It's what I feared then, straightness does matter. 'Blocking' the forms to make them useable just doesn't appeal to me -- at least not at this time. I'll request a refund for what it's worth. So much for honesty among cane rod builders. This is enough to make me quit before I even get started. leoniru
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timmy		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 118 08/10/2008 16:35	I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. Slightly bent forms won't matter a jot. As you say, the strip is flexible and will conform to and curve. In fact, if you have to squint down the forms to see the curve, the strip is likely to be less straight than the form. What does matter though, is the consistency of the groove, you can check this by sliding your dial indicator along the groove with the forms cranked shut. your looking for about .005" fall per station, plus or minus about a thou. (you can probably get away with a bit more.) There is a good story in "A Masters Guide" when Garrison had some work done on his house. The builder needed a pry-bar to lift a slab, and used Garry's brand new forms, putting a large bend in them, Garrison used them that way for many years afterwards. Of course straighter is better, but I don't think it is anything to be worried about. Tim. www.harrisflyrods.co.uk
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BigTJ		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 481 08/10/2008 16:38	If you believe the garrison book, perfect straightness of planing forms DOES NOT matter. Garrison's forms evidently got bent by a day laborer that used them as a pry bar. He planed a lot of rods on those forms, with no worries. Since it sounds like you are stuck with the forms, here is what I would do to convince yourself whether or not you have a problem. Plane out a strip. Check the dimensions. If you can get the taper you desire, with 60-degree triangles, you'll be fine. I seriously don't think you have anything to worry about. All you need is true 60-degree geometry, a relatively consistent "drop" in taper, and the ability to adjust the taper. Straightenss is not absolutely necessary unless it interferes with your ability to keep the strip in the groove.
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thousandstar		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 56 08/10/2008 17:01	If you let something like this stop you, you'll never finish a rod. You will encounter many situations and processes that are not perfect during your bamboo journey. You must overcome this and any other obstacle that gets in your way if you truly have the desire to make your own cane rods. Hang in there!
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oddsnrods		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 149 08/10/2008 19:41	I'm with Tim, it does not matter if the bars/grooves of the form are not prefectly straight within reason, the push pull shoulder bolts will bend the steel anyway if you lean on the Allen keys enough. My forms, which I partially made myself from Cattanachs book, have recently produced an almost swelled butt of a typical F E Thomas fly rod. I followed the taper chart and the steel bars followed along - my steel forms are of mild steel so they b-e-n-d. Go with Tims advice.
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Lee Koch	Yup	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 378 08/10/2008 22:31	I'm also with the majority here. Don't worry. Timmy's advice, to slide your dial indicator down the forms and watch for the indicator needle to move evenly, is very good advice. Do it a couple times and you'll see/feel a correlation between the needle movement and the movement of your hand (i.e. faster movement of the dial indicator means faster movement of the needle.) Do it with the forms completely closed, i.e. pinched together as much as they can go together. The climb in the groove should be roughly even for each 5 inches when closed. If you move your hand at an even rate down the forms, and the dial indicator needle moves evenly, then you are good to go. And in truth, if the correlation isn't perfect, it still won't matter, because as the guys have said above, you are bending the steel ever-so-slightly anyway when you set your stations, and that will "overcome" any random variations in the groove. Don't worry, keep gearing up, and go to it! It's great fun in the end! Lee Last Edited By: Lee Koch 08/10/2008 22:34. Edited 1 time.
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john channer		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 616 08/10/2008 23:22	I'll second what thoundstar said, don't obsess over perfection when you're first starting, the important thing is get started and get thru the process a few times, then you can get picky about minor details. In the grand scheme of things, unless they've got such a kink in them that you can't adjust them, a bend won't matter any. john
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fishketcha		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 13 08/11/2008 08:27	It wouldn't be uncommon for a planed strip to come out of your fom and bend the opposite way as your sweep. Start planing!
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gmreeves		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 36 08/11/2008 09:52	I made my forms myself and I'm pretty sure they are far from perfect. They do on the other hand produce a fine blank in my eyes. They come out very close to the desired dimensions. Start planing and enjoy the process. Once you start, you can't stop. All of the rod builders I have ever talked with have been honest as far as I know. Are the forms noticeably bent without sighting down them? Perhaps the seller wasn't aware they were bent. Maybe all he knew was that they were used but still capable of producing a good rod. Of course I don't know the details of the sale transaction, but I would hate to think that someone out right lied to you about the condition of the forms. If you are truly displeased about the bent forms and feel "boned", I would think any one of us here (if we were the seller) would glady return the money to you. That said, I would use them to make a blank and see how it turns out.
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Joe Arguello	Handmade forms!	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 115 08/12/2008 09:24	I have to agree with the major opinion. I made my forms on a table saw using a file and I used a drill press to drill and tap the holes for bolts. A friend of mine has a set of forms he bought from JD Wagner which are a work of art, I droll over them every time I see them! Anyway he was looking at my forms one day and made the statement that went something like this "Joe's forms are handmade and don't even have pins in them, but the rods that come off of them are flawless" or something like that. You know as I sit here writing this I remember that I was using these very forms one time and noticed that they were bowed bad enough that they would kinda rock on the middle and I had put some rolled up duck tape on one end to stop this while I was planing! I then figured this was kinda a pain so I took them and put them on a couple of blocks of wood on each end and stood on them jumping up and down to straighten them! I know this has to create quite an image in everyone's mind, kinda comical but true all the same. Anyway long story short I still use these very forms. So I wouldn't worry too much, as has been said you need to get to work everything will come together. I really don't think that the seller was trying to get over by any means. One other thing you might consider is let someone else plane a rod on these forms and see what happens. Hope this helps ease your mind. I remember when I first started, I lost a lot of sleep over .001 inch. Have fun Go fish Make some rods. Joe When it's all said and done, there's always more said than done! www.jea-bamboo-flyrods.com
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leoniru		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3 08/13/2008 21:54	Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. A bit of an update though, is in order. I did contact the seller and relayed my concerns and observations. He said that they were very straight when he packaged and shipped them. He suggested letting the forms 'relax' as they had been bounced down the road in a hot truck for three days or so. I loosened all the pull screws and then set the ends of the forms on inch high blocks with the convex side up overnight. Darn if they didn't appear quite a bit better the next day. I then followed another suggestion he made in order to try to quantify the degree of bow. Stretched a taut string between two nails driven in a board longer than the forms and centered the string over the ends of the groove with the forms snugged together. The result was that this string veered off toward the one edge of the groove about half way down the form ---- not enough to even leave the groove. The amount is about one to two sixteenths of an inch. I didn't bother to measure it as it was at that moment that I realized how insignificant the curvature was over a 76" length -- it just looked bad to my eye when sighting down the form. OCD I guess, and it's something I better get a handle on if I'm ever going to complete a rod! So, I have accepted this lack of laser straightness in my forms as painful as it is. I will check the grooves' dimension progression as suggested, and thanks again to all for the encouragement.
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