Choice of steel planing form. Bellinger, Wagner or?

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antiquarianangler	Choice of steel planing form. Bellinger, Wagner or?		Lead	[-]
Posts: 67 01/29/2008 00:04	Tags : None I am in the unenviable position of having to choose the tools required to make my own bamboo fly rods. I have set up a basic workshop and have been making some of my own tools. But, I draw the line at making a steel planing form when there Professional companies out there selling high quality forms. So, here goes; My question is, Which form would you choose if money was not an object but quality was. Wagner or Bellinger? It is my understanding Golden Witch no longer sell steel forms. The other choice is this; Wagner has a standard planing form and a swelled butt planing form and it would seem to me that the Bellinger planing form will do both standard taper and swelled butt using the same form. Is this true? And what is the better choice. Freight does not make any difference as it is going to cost plenty anyway because I live in Australia. I am calling on all the professional rod makers from this forum that have been educating and entertaining me. Now I need some serious advice. Cheers Greg
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BigTJ		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 410 01/29/2008 00:46	Greg, I have the wagner swelled butt forms. They are really nice, but they cost $1100! If I had to do it over again, I would have bought the regular ones, Jeff was out of stock though for several months and money was burning a hole in my pocket so I couldn't wait.The swelled butt thing is a bit over-rated, most tapers don't call for it, I am beginning to wonder if I will ever use this feature. Anyway, my forms are dead-nuts straight with about as perfect of a 60 degree groove as you could ask for and the correct and consistent drop station to station. You simply can't do any better than the Wagner forms. I guess one good thing about the swelled butt forms is they are super heavy which makes them stable. I think mine weigh about 50 lbs. they are freakin' heavy! On the other hand I have heard really good things about bellinger forms. They come with a depth gauge too so they are a great value. You can't go wrong with either set. Good luck, -John
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dryflyRSW		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 106 01/29/2008 08:48	I have forms from both Wagner (quad) and Bellinger (std hex and swelled butt hex) and would rate them all excellent. You can't go wrong with forms from either. Both companies are great to deal with. dryflyrsw
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marcusw		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 8 01/29/2008 12:57	The plans for making planing forms can be found in number of rod building books. They are not complicated. Given the distance and cost of shipping have you thought of having a machine shop make them up? I am looking into that as the cost of shipping over the US/Canada border is absurd and added about 50% to the total cost of my current forms even though the distance was not great. Having said that I have a Bellinger form and its great.
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BigTJ		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 411 01/29/2008 13:44	Marcus, A friend of mine has had forms made by machine shops and there are some pitfalls. It's hard to find one that will give you the time of day, and those that do, have hefty set-up charges. If you have a buddy in the machining business it can be straightforward. But there are a lot of businesses out there that say they can do something but when they go to do it you can sometimes find things like reverse tapers, incompletely tapped holes, improper alignment, etc. Just thought it would be worth mentioning that having a machine shop make forms isn't necessarily as straightforward as it might seem at first blush.
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oldfishbrain		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 989 01/29/2008 18:39	I have planed strips on Wagner regular forms for the past three years. When I first got them the fellow that taught me how to make cane rods (particular as hell) and I checked them over and they were perfect. They have been a pleasure to use. The only change I have made was to replace the hex head adjusting bolts with Allen set screws with an appropriately sized ball bearing at the end of the push screw. The setting of the form is very smooth and there is little sticking out to interfere with my hand pushing a plane down the form. And by the way I have made two swelled butt rods with the form, although both were Baby Catskills with the very moderate swelled butt. Maker of light line nodeless bamboo fly rods avardanis@sympatico.ca
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dsmithbzn		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3 01/29/2008 19:26	I bought the Bellinger forms last year. The folks at Bellinger were very easy to deal with and the forms are terrific. I do think the included depth gauge and base add to the value. I just finished a blank with a swelled butt and the forms worked just fine. All that being said, I have read nothing but great things about the Wagner forms.
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oysterbamboo	forms	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 132 01/29/2008 20:35	I don't think anyone has ever complained about the quality of either of these forms. That being said, the Bellinger forms are only $750, that includes the swelled butt option which is no additional charge, AND the depth gauge, point, and base. Also, it comes with allen bolts and oldfishbrain mentioned he switched over to these on his Wagner forms. I also like that the push-pull screws on the Bellinger are on opposite sides, so your hands and tools aren't running into each other while trying to make adjustments. Yes, I sell Bellinger forms, but only because it's the form I choose to use on my own rods (for the aforementioned reasons). You won't go wrong from a quality standpoint either way. Just my two cents. Bill O. www.oysterbamboo.com
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antiquarianangler		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 68 01/30/2008 00:17	Wow! (sold on both forms) Great input on both forms, thank you very much, I am much obliged. Now for for the next question and the next and the next hahaha... Now, Bellinger is cheaper and include the depth guage hhmmmm. Cheers Greg
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oldschoolcane	And what about the other forms?	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 20 04/02/2008 14:20	It looks like Bellinger forms are the mid priced suppliers, what about Colorado Bootstrap forms and others? Anyone have any thoughts on forms for less cash outlay? Tim
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aparramoure		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1275 04/02/2008 14:24	Colorado Bootstrap forms are execellent. Cap screws and allen screws... can't beat it.
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ArcticCane		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 364 04/02/2008 14:32	Here are details and specs for all the planing form manufacturers that I could find. Details and prices are valid through summer '07. Form length and minimum tip depth might be of interest. Bamboo Rodsmith - Mark P. Mahaffey http://bamboorodsmith.com/planing_forms.htm bamboorodsmith@gmail.com 775-338-2128 $430 + s/h for hex forms $860 + s/h for quad or penta (!!) forms Shipped from Nevada Details: 68" long; min. tip depth .024"; allen key adjustment Bellinger http://www.genuinebellinger.com/planingforms.html inforequest@genuinebellinger.com 866-371-6151 $750 + s/h for standard forms Swelled butt form and quad forms also available Includes depth gauge Shipped from Oregon Details: 72" long; allen key adjustment Lon Blauvelt* http://members.tripod.com/~BambooFlyRods/planing.html Bamboosfly@aol.com 207-781-5235 $425 + s/h Shipped from Maine Details: 60" long; min. tip depth .028"; 3/8" hex bolt adjustment Colorado Bootstrap - Now Bogue Manufacturing 505-344-9988 $390 (?) + s/h Shipped from New Mexico Details: 60" long Three Rivers Rod Co. - Forrest Maxwell ThreeRiversRodCo@comcast.net 503-585-6667 $750 + s/h for standard $850 + s/h for swelled butt forms - Custom swell cutting available Includes depth gauge Shipped from Oregon Details: 72" long; min. tip depth .020"-.025"; allen key adjustment JD Wagner* http://www.wagnerrods.com/tools.html sales@wagnerrods.com 440-845-4415 $850 + s/h for standard forms $1050 + s/h for swelled butt forms $1650 + s/h for quad forms Shipped from Ohio Details: 76" long; min. tip depth .018"; .001"/inch slope; 3/8" hex bolt adjustment Chris Last Edited By: ArcticCane 04/02/2008 14:36. Edited 1 time.
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oldschoolcane		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 21 04/02/2008 16:22	Thanks for the comprehensive listing of planing form suppliers, cool. I've already been in touch with Bamboo Rodsmith about their forms, I wonder beyond the obvious differences of length & the depth guage included with the Bellinger - what is the user specific difference between the Bellinger and Bamboo Rodsmith forms? Would the Rodsmith forms do everything most would require? By waiting and paying more to own the Bellinger/Wagner forms what do you really achieve? Tim Last Edited By: oldschoolcane 04/02/2008 16:24. Edited 1 time.
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antiquarianangler		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 82 04/04/2008 11:12	Thanks again fot the input, absolutely vital. CheersGreg
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Robert Hicks		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 14 04/17/2008 07:44	"By waiting and paying more to own the Bellinger/Wagner forms what do you really achieve? "..... I had a set of the cheaper forms, (Blauvelt) here and kept finding glue lines in the same place of every rod that I made. About 12" from the base of the rod, right as the cane came out of the cork...you know...one of the first places that people's eyes went when looking at a rod. Come to find out the groove had been cut ascew and off by a few degrees. I sold those forms and put that money towards a set of Bellingers....I have never looked back. Dead Nuts on...that's all that needs to be said of the forms. And they are hefty, so they will not slide around while you are planning. You can't go wrong with them. I haven't seen Wagner's forms, but I have also heard nothing but good things about them.
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gew3201	Planning Forms	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6 04/17/2008 16:01	I would recommend Forrest Maxwell hands down. Forrest is the one who made all the forms for Bellinger before leaving and going out on his own. I tell you he is one hell of a machinist and his work is only the finest quality. Right now I have him making me a beveller which IMHO runs circles around the Hand Planners friend in overall quality and percision. Give him a call and talk with him I promise you will not be disappointed. Gary
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Prowanab	Forms	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 138 04/17/2008 16:42	I ordered my form and binder from Bellinger, Joe said they would ship Friday.
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Troutgetter		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 414 04/17/2008 17:13 Moderator	Good choice! Mike www.fishbamboo.com
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Stockmal	Bellinger Forms?	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9 06/04/2009 14:09	I have a question about the Bellinger forms with the swelled butt. Can you tell me if the swell on these forms can duplicate the swelled butt found on the old Thomas & Thomas rods? I know the Wagner forms do... but when I contacted Bellinger on this they couldn't give me much information on it. Are there limitations to the range of tappers that the Bellinger swelled forms are capable of producing? I was very surprised when I contacted Bellinger that they were little help in answering simple questions about their forms. I also asked them if they could send me a picture or two of a rod showing the swelled butt made off their forms...they had none. If anyone can enlighten me on these form I would be much appreciated.
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Photojoe4		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 45 06/04/2009 18:39	Here is some information on the Bellinger swelled butt forms: The swell has a .025" drop over 2 inches. That's in addition to the straight taper of .001"/inch that is cut into the form. The minimum butt dimension (with the forms all the way closed) on the straight taper forms is roughly .110", and with the swell it would be .135" It's quite possible to cut most any extreme swell (Leonard, T&T, Heddon, FE Thomas, etc..) and also any standard straight taper by working above the swell. Hope this clarifies anything you weren't clear on. Regards,
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Stockmal		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 06/04/2009 19:10	Hey...thanks Joe for that info on the Bellinger swelled forms. My only concern would be if I was making a 7' 3wt. rod with a swell...and the form isn't cut shallow enough near the tip of the butt section because of where the swell is position. So my next question would be... if the Bellinger swelled forms are completely closed down the entire butt side...what are the depth specs. of the form at each station. If I knew these minimum depth numbers with the form closed that will tell me if a short, light rod is possible to make.
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Choice of steel planing form. Bellinger, Wagner or?

Choice of steel planing form. Bellinger, Wagner or?

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