Bob
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bobbeegee |
Semi-hollow built v/s hollow built rods? |
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What's the difference?
Bob |
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aparramoure |
#1 | |||
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That would be my question. Either it is solid or it is hollowed out, either totally or partially.
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ArcticCane |
#2 | |||
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I use the term 'semi-hollow' to mean 'less hollow' or 'hollow but with thicker walls and/or more solid dams than normal'.
Chris
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thousandstar |
#3 | |||
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Check out this video: http://www.beaverheadrods.com/images/beavrds_pix/rodblank_side2.mov
That is hollow! |
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J W Foster |
#4 | |||
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Maybe it's like my semi-straight rods...ask the maker
Jerry |
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bobbeegee |
#5 | |||
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Don't own one and can't ask the maker, that's why I'm posting here.
If the rod sections aren't straight I would certainly post a question as to why. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting? What are the advantages of a semi-hollow? More to the point, what are the benefits of a hollow-built? I think I've been down this road before. I know, a crisper rod. I just don't get it. Please enlighten me! Bob |
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ArcticCane |
#6 | |||
Maybe it's like my semi-straight rods...ask the makerOr 'Semi-round' like your 8-sided rods.
Bob, hollowing to a greater or lesser degree simply changes the character of a rod. Some rods/tapers benefit greatly from removing some material from inside the rod in various ways, while some don't. It simply makes for a different rod. One comment that was made about my 7'9" hollow 5wt at the Metolius this past week was it's lack of tip bounce, a characteristic that I can't duplicate on that taper without hollowing. My most ordered rod was an 8'2" hollow 6wt whose balance and action I simply could not reproduce without some sort of hollow building. Semi hollowing simply removes less material and therefore changes the rod's character a little less. Again, some rods/tapers benefit from this and some don't. Working an interior taper to the hollowing is another way to change the character of a rod in a way that simply modifying the taper of a solid rod can't. It was an enlightening experience casting so many rods at the Camp Sherman this past week, as well as was watching others cast rods. I took a few solid rods and cast them and immediately thought they would be improved by being hollowed to some degree, while others would lose what made them cast well and gave them their smoothness. For me, the technique appears to be very important as 4 out of the 5 rods that I liked the most at the show were hollow. An 8'4" fluted hollow 4wt by Marty Karstetter was especially wonderful as was Steve Kiley's 8' star-hollowed 5wt North Star. Either rod would be different and less enjoyable to me were they solid. I know this for sure in the case of Steve's rod as it is based on a well known classic taper that I have made solid a number of times.
Chris
Last Edited By: ArcticCane 07/24/2008 22:12.
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oddsnrods |
#7 | |||
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In a dainty trout fly rod (may I venture..) there is little to be gained from hollow or partial hollow building, a few grams of material will be removed
(thereby adding a good deal of extra work /cost) for a slight perceived reduction in weight. A few feet of wet fly line in the guides may negate any rod weight
saving advantage, in front of the angler -or the lighter weight of the reel behind . Extending this treatise, I have made cane rods (big fellows) up to 10-11
ft lengths with butt specs of .500 thou. across the flats, the largest that I think can be made as a 'single built' section- there could be some
advantage in weight saving there I suppose with hollow building here, but again, if I fish while holding the fore grip (of a baitcasting rod...) as described
in the Hardy catalogues of old, the weight of the reel behind the grip makes the rod (in front) feel light and responsive. I would think that the same line of
thinking would apply to long cane spey type rods. As I have several rods on the go at the same time , I would much prefer to start on the next one - on a new
voyage of discovery- maybe I should try partial hollowing out at some point.
Last Edited By: oddsnrods 07/25/2008 07:15.
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ArcticCane |
#8 | |||
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I'll agree that in most cases static 'weight' isn't the issue. Too big a reel will make more difference in overall ounces than most rod and
taper adjustments. Removing unnecessary mass along the rod's length is not advantageous for the perceived or even measured weight of the entire rod, but of
the action gained (or lost) due to less mass having to be moved about at certain points along the rod while in motion. I'm also convinced that the hollow
rod recovers quicker, or at least differently, due to resisting and springing back from a deformed, oval shape under load.
Dainty rods do indeed benefit less from hollowing, but that is due to the fact that you can't remove enough material to make sizable differences not because they are light weight to begin with. Again, hollowing does change the character of a rod. Some really like it, other don't but it does change it.
Chris
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oddsnrods |
#9 | |||
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Static/dead weight is the only issue in hollow building . Deformed oval under load? Glass yes/maybe to some extent ---bamboo cannot be-- as it is a hex.
a.m addition. I have yet to explore making hollow or semi hollow rods. I am sure there is some difference in their action- lighter in the hand, snappier, for those who would like to make the effort. For heavy duty rods , fly or otherwise, I would consider that some internal support is required or a shatterered blank may be on the cards if a big fellow really pulls. If I were to be any good with math I could work it out.
Last Edited By: oddsnrods 07/25/2008 07:13.
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ArcticCane |
#10 | |||
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OK. Then let me put it this way. An ounce removed from the tip section of the rod makes a bigger difference in action than an ounce removed from the butt -
when the rod is being cast.
Deformed oval under load?? Glass yes/maybe to some extent ---bamboo cannot be.Why? A hollow rod is just a hollow tube. Obviously there is deformation in a tube under load.
Chris
Last Edited By: ArcticCane 07/25/2008 00:41.
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AJ Bamboo |
#11 | |||
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having fielded the question more times than i can remember. very few rods are actually hollow in the sense that plastic rods are. the method of hollowing
almost always leads to a 'semi' in one sense or another. the trick, as always is in the application of the hollowing method you use and the results you
intend to achieve. there are some hollow rods that are only hollow by the largest stretch of a Madison avenue imagination and many more that are semi hollow
and show a true benefit.
"you hollow the butt for the customer and you hollow the mid and tip for the rod" when it comes to building a truly, completely hollow rod as an experiment i have to look to Jerry F, maybe a surprise at next Camp Sherman Jerry? |
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fishketcha |
#12 | |||
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This is a very interesting topic. I am about to start another Sir D and I was going to try semi hollow on this one. Would this rod be considered a dainty rod?
Would I be taking away some of the durability?
Wayne |
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oddsnrods |
#13 | |||
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My fault for mentioning 'dainty' with regard to fly rods, nothing derogatory I assure you. I suppose trout fly rods are all dainty as compared to the
larger rods that I sometimes make for other purposes. Personally I am happier with a solid rod for strength, but for trout fishing I do not think that would be
too much of an issue if some hollowing is done. With large salmon in the frame I would consider that another story, or in fact any large hard fighting fish. My
pal Jorge made a double built fly rod to try off Costa Rica, such a rod can really be leaned on, in fact he did just that and went on to boat a sailfish(or was
it a marlin?) of 150lbs.
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J W Foster |
#14 | |||
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Hi AJ
Great to see you again..as always Hollowing, you know I laugh..Powell called it hollowing, so does Winston. Wayne Maca is the "ends all" when it comes to a hollow built rod..Even if I knew his ingredients I have no desire to jump in a hazmat suit to make a fly rod. My earliest attempts, like everyones, ended in a pile of of bamboo slivers. I am now content to scallop with various teardrop shapes, sort of oblong ruffles. Shaped charges. I guess I like my rods to last more than a few minutes. I'm just getting old..and these damn 8 siders seem to weigh a little more so even a small amount of lightening helps. It's all those extra glue lines..:-) Regards Jerry |
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greg hall |
#15 | |||
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Perhaps Chris Carlin will be kind enough to post pictures from his last steelhead fishing trip. I think his photos may interest those who are interested in
semi hollow rods for bigger fish or the have some questions about hollow built rods and strength.
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fishbum |
#16 | |||
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Getting back to Bob's question, I would like to add that a semi-hollow rod is one that uses scallops and dams to hollow it. A true hollow rod would be
hollowed by using a fluting method. You can see through my hollow rod sections so I guess mine are truly hollow. Most of the rods I make today are hollow.
Without getting into a lot of math, you can remove around 40% of the interior of the rod and only lose about 2.5% - 3.0% of the original stiffness. I have a
hollow 9 weight that I use for salmon that is going on it's 5th season this October. Guides tell me I should not use "a rod like that" on these
fish. Oh well.
fishbum |
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AJ Bamboo |
#17 | |||
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at my website, thramerrods.com, under the Grouse Creek listing, top right photo, that rod is a 6wt hollow
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16 pmd |
#18 | |||
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First semihollow vs. hollow: seems to me that "semihollow" was a term first used to describe E.C. Powell rods because the cedar core to which the
bamboo was laminated was removed at intervals, not down the entire length of the rod. That left solid dams spaced along the shaft in between the hollows - thus
"semihollow" in contrast to other rods that were hollowed continuously along the length of a rod section. The differences between hollow and
semihollow per se, at least as it affects action and casting, isn't nearly as great as the difference between whether a rod is hollow in the butt only or
also hollow in the tip and mid sections.
I know it's been said before, including in this thread, but it's not the removal of dead, static weight that changes rod action and recovery, it's the location of the weight removed. Adding some fat lead wire to a rod just above the grip won't change rod action an iota. Add that same amount of weight to the tip section and it will make the rod slow and soggy. The reverse happens when you remove weight. A small amount of weight removed in the tip section of a rod has a far greater effect than the same amount removed from the butt. When the rod is held motionless, where you add or subtract the weight makes no difference - weight is weight. When you begin to move the rod, where that weight is added or subtracted makes a big difference! In addition, when you remove lower-strength pith, you are removing weight without losing a proportional amount of strength - improving the strength-to-weight ratio of the rod material. On top of all that, it's just a mechanical fact that the fibers closer to the center of the rod are less important than those on the outside of the rod. Those exterior fibers (that happen to be bamboo's power fibers) do all the stretching and compressing when the rod alternately bends forward and back as we cast and are the most important. The fibers, or in reality pith, in the center are on the neutral axis that neither compresses nor stretches and add little or nothing to the rod's strength. Getting rid of them is a benefit except for the crush resistance they might provide (thus one reason for dams). What this all means is that the notion that hollowing doesn't have much effect on lightline or shorter rods and is really only helpful in longer, heavier rods is a myth. Yes, it does have a greater effect in longer rods, but in an 8' 4 wt. rod it can have a huge beneficial effect on action and recovery. Removing deadweight in the butt makes the rod feel lighter, but doesn't do much for the action. That's not really what hollowing is best for. It's removing weight in the upper rod sections that has the effect on action, feel and speed of recovery. When someone says hollowing makes no difference in lighter or smaller rods, they are either talking about hollowing in the butt only or haven't given it a fair try. It's hard for a decent caster NOT to notice. The true test, of course, would be to cast rods that have been hollowed in the tips against the same rods that have not. One would have to be a rodmaker (or a good friend of one) to do exactly that, but I think casting a bunch of hollow rods against some similar solid rods would give anyone the feel of the difference. The myth about hollowbuilding only making rods lighter dies hard, it seems, but as more builders are trying it and seeing what it does, the myth is at least slowly losing its acceptance.
Last Edited By: 16 pmd 07/25/2008 14:45.
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ArcticCane |
#19 | |||
My pal Jorge made a double built fly rod to try off Costa Rica, such a rod can really be leaned on, in fact he did just that and went on to boat a sailfish(or was it a marlin?) of 150lbs. Ken Paterson posted that photo a while back on another forum. That was an awesome catch on bamboo!! That is a beautiful rainbow AJ! If I remember the story correctly, that was caught in the Canyon on the Kenai, no? Here are a few decent sized steelhead caught on hollow bamboo rods in a tight, fast moving river and the details of the rods used. 9' 8wt quad - straight cut hollow (like Maca's but with thicker walls) all the way from 2" from the ferrule through the reel seat at .075" walls. Mid hollowed to within 1" of the ferrules at .065" walls - tip hollowed a bit with .055" walls. If it weren't for the ferrules and the couple inches in front of them, you could use the sections as straws.
8'6" 8wt hex - scalloped hollowed into the tip with similar specs to above quad.
8' 7wt hex - fluted to within 2" of ferrule and into tip approx. 1/2 way to tip top. Similar specs to above.
Those are just a few from our spring steelhead trip. We landed probably 60 steelhead, ranging from 24" to 38", between the 3 of us who were using bamboo.
Chris
Last Edited By: ArcticCane 07/25/2008 16:28.
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canerodscom |
#20 | |||
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This little King Salmon from Alaska was caught on a hollow built bamboo rod.
Harry
Harry Boyd
maker@canerods.com http://www.canerods.com |
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