Guide wrap air pockets

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dorenac	Guide wrap air pockets		Lead	[-]
Posts: 17 07/27/2008 17:48	Tags : None Surely this has been discussed before, but I haven't found relevant information, so I 'll bring it up again. As the title says, I have problems with air pockets, shimmers, whatever you want to call them when wrapping guides. On colored wraps they don't seem to show up too badly but with white silk(Pearsall's Gossamer) a bubble or two always seems to show up. I've tried heating the silk and varnish, played with various tensions, and have resorted ,most recently, to periodically spiralling one revolution as I wrap. So far the latter seems to work the best. Any foolproof methods? Thanks, Rich
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oldfishbrain		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1148 07/28/2008 10:48	I haven't tried it myself (I prefer color preserved wraps) but I seem to recall that the consensus of opinion to avoid shimmers in transparent wraps was a first coat (apply an initial drop in the tunnel) with epoxy (lite flex coat diluted 50% with ethanol). You can then finish off with 3-4 coats of varnish before varnishing the whole rod. Maker of light line nodeless bamboo fly rods avardanis@sympatico.ca
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stephen kiley		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 270 07/28/2008 11:48	i use flex coat light. 1 part resin 1 part hardiner.mix 2 min. then add 1 part DNA mix 2min. i apply with a turner going from the foot to the guide, put on a littel thick .let turn about 15 min then wipe off. let turn over night and weight 2 days or more to put what ever finish you want over it. when you wipe it off you will see the tooth of the thread so additional coats will have some thing to grab on to.any thread ends or fuzzes can be cut off with a razor blade. hope this helps steve
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shuksanrods		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 18 07/28/2008 16:08	what has worked for me as someone who uses only a varnish on the wraps, is to thin it considerably on the first couple coats over the wrap.
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kimk		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 577 07/28/2008 19:32	I use only Man-O-War. The first three coats are cut 50/50 w/ turpentine and another two or three coats are cut with 10% turpentine. Then I dip. All coats are put on with a dubbing needle and worked into the thread. It seems like a lot of work and I suppose it is but it beats all heck out rewrapping even a single guide. AgMD
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john channer		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 606 07/28/2008 23:08	3 things will help. 1- ditch the Gossamer, it's more trouble than it's worth. 3/0 will work better and be easier to wrap, 2/0 is better yet. 2- pull the tags all the way thru along the guide feet, this helps fill the void and provides a wick to pull and hold your finish in the cavity. 3- apply the first coat generously, let it sit for a while, I wrap all the guides first, then finish all of them and go back to the beginning when I'm done and wipe off the excess with my finger, then just let the section sit in a rack or across a couple of sticks or books or something with the guides facing down overnight. john
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Zenkoanhead		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1352 07/29/2008 23:35	Any thoughts on those dark streaks that sometimes run along the guide feet? Are those air pockets? John, these days I apply my varnish with a thin bladed plastic spatula. Easier to use than a finger for removing excess varnish. Don
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dorenac		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 18 07/30/2008 06:42	John mentions "ditch the Gossamer, it's more trouble than it's worth." Please elaborate, how is silk diameter going to matter? Thanks, Rich
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john channer		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 609 08/02/2008 23:11	Rich, Try it for yourself, make some test wraps of various colors of Gossamer, 3/0 and 2/0 and see which ones you can make look the best without driving yourself crazy to do it, I bet the winner won't be Gossamer. john
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dorenac		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 19 08/03/2008 07:09	John, thanks ,I will try your idea as I'm not well satisfied with the current results. By the way I was mistaken. Although I do use Gossamer most often, this particular rod is being wrapped with YLI white silk. On another note, have you or anyone else for that matter tried Waterlox? It has a blend of tung, linseed, and phenolic resins and other varnishes? Rich
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Lee Koch	waterlox plus...	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 370 08/03/2008 09:49	Some rodmakers apply walnut oil to the wraps, let it soak in, then wick off excess. Repeat an hour later. Let sit 24hrs, then apply a coat of waterlox. The waterlox is apparently pretty "hot" and it "kicks" the walnut oil, helping it to set up. I used to use walnut oil, but it took forever to dry (a month or 2?) and I don't have that much patience. My Man-O-War would not "kick" the walnut oil, and then I'd end up with a gooey mess on my wraps. I prefer to color-preserve my wraps these days, but a rod-making friend who makes lots of rods uses this method, and his transparent wraps are impeccable. Whatever method a person uses, if practice does not make perfect, it at least gets you towards that goal. I think walnut oil is available at artist supply stores. Lee
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dorenac		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 20 08/03/2008 10:58	I've tried the method Baginski describes in his book but have not had the fantastic results he achieves. That's why I mentioned a varnish with tung oil.
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dorenac		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 21 08/20/2008 15:22	As a follow-up to my earlier post this month I want to report some progress. It may be that I was using way too much thread tension. That has been changed. But some other changes have been implemented, too. I use Epifanes to varnish, and now dilute it 50/50 with naptha. Next as per Rolf Baginski I heat the silk, and finally varnish is applied with small badger hair artist brushes. These adjustments seem to work very nicely. I will continue to experiment with thread tension some more. And I'm back to using Pearsall's Gossamer again also. Thanks to everyone's feedback.
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rlnunleycom		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 281 08/21/2008 18:16	Thread tension is very important... more important that what thread you use. I use 00 white with just enough tension to hold the guide foot in place, varnish them and get super clear wraps... no air pockets, no shimmers, can't see the tag ends, etc... I simply use Last and Last Marine Door and Spar Varnish. I put it on heavy (I use a very thin natural sable brush) then wick most of it off. I also start right at the base of the guide food and let the varnish "wick" up the tunnel along the guide foot. I've done, in the past week, on one repair, clear wrap a stripper guide and hook keeper and I've done complete wraps 7' 4 wt (clear with honey tipping on a blonde rod... looks pretty sharp), but not one wrap on the two rods had to be redone and not one had even a sign of a shimmer or air pocket. I AM going to try heating the silk. I mean, why not... one of my heat guns sits right by the wrapping table in the shop, so it's not like it's going to take any more time. I have another that gets clear wraps coming up in about a week. Another hint. Even if you have to wrap slow, wrap evenly. Don't put a burnisher to white silk and don't "pack" it with your thumbnail or a burnisher. Just get them on even and straight to begin with. Burnishing, at least in my experience, is a sure fire way to get shimmers. Bob R.L. Nunley Rodmaker Last Edited By: rlnunleycom 08/21/2008 18:47. Edited 1 time.
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Joe Arguello	"There's trouble in Brighton tonight"	#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 121 08/22/2008 09:30	I AM going to try heating the silk. I mean, why not... one of my heat guns sits right by the wrapping table in the shop, so it's not like it's going to take any more time. OH, OH this sounds like trouble brewing on the horizon! What do they call this 'a pending Nunleyism'? Let us know when the smoke clears! I remember early in the begining of my career, in a land far, far away..........Oh sorry, sometimes I get carried away. Anyway I once got the idea to heat a wrap on a stripping guide and placed one of those clamp on heat lamps right above the butt section, the butt section was laying on a work bench and the lamp was about 3' above the bench, no prob. should be just about right. Well as things go I went into the house for a few mins. for whatever reason I can't remember. Well when I came back out to the garage/shop there was that sweet smell of cane being heat treated, you all know that smell, my wife likes that smell. But wait, I wasn't heat treating anything and hadn't done so for a few days, how could the smell still be there and so strong? Well as Paul Harvey used to say: "and now the rest of the story" The lamp fell off of it's perch and couldn't fall off onto the floor and break as it should have! Oh no, it had to land right on the butt section, (at least it did land on the stripping guide!) now the lamp was about 3" away from the cane. So I took it off and the butt section looked like an anaconda that had just eaten a pig! Nice big belly, with a kinda flamed look, maybe this is how somebody got the idea to do mortised handles! Oh well live and learn. Joe When it's all said and done, there's always more said than done! www.jea-bamboo-flyrods.com Last Edited By: Joe Arguello 08/22/2008 09:45. Edited 1 time.
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rlnunleycom	I seem to remember that, Joe!!!	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 283 08/22/2008 10:18	Joe, I think I remember that from days of yore on the original listserv. There were maybe a couple of dozen of us on WAY back when! Well, more than that, but not the HUNDREDS that are on today. Your story reminds me of an event at SRG. One of the attendees was showing his first rod, but nobody saw it. He talked about how he had left it in his heat treating oven too long then drew a bottle of ashes from his pocket and showed them to everyone. Joe, I think they've changed the rules for a Nunleyism now. Someone told me that you must bring blood under the new guidelines... hmmmm... blood in a rod shop! THAT doesn't happen very often!!! Bob R.L. Nunley Rodmaker
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rlnunleycom		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 287 08/26/2008 17:25	Below is a picture of a guide wrap I did on a rod repair this last week (finished this week). This is low thread tension, spar varnish, the way I described above. It's crystal clear, no air bubbles, no shimmers, no pockets. I didn't try the heat gun yet... Joe kind of made me gun shy, reminding me of my tendancy to burn things down!!! R.L. Nunley Rodmaker
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dorenac		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 22 09/01/2008 11:16	As written of late I've been experimenting in an attempt to get consistent, on demand, clear guide wraps. Consistancy has been my biggest challenge. So far thread tension, heated wraps, and proper varnish thinning have each contributed to greater success. A fourth technique needs to be included now. After application of the varnish, one must keep the silks well wetted and allow the varnish to not only soak in completely but to dry slowly. And I suspect that a second application shortly after the first will further help.
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shuksanrods		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 28 09/01/2008 19:50	as I mentioned I put thinned spar over gossamer wraps, what works for me also to keep air out from under/around the guide feet, is I put the first coat on and let it cure with the guides hanging down (horizonally), I don't utilize a rod turner. The air stays out from under the foot and the varnish cures that way, with some help from gravity. I don't worry about drips or sags, as once I have a couple coats of finish over the wraps I sand the wrapped flats anyway and clean up the edges with a razor blade and OOOO wool. Then dip. http://shuksanrods.wordpress.com Last Edited By: shuksanrods 09/01/2008 20:54. Edited 1 time.
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dorenac		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 46 06/24/2009 20:30	The clear guide wraps difficulty may have been solved in a remarkable and obvious way. Since I use Epifanes I had always thinned and applied to the wraps with mixed results, as I'd explained earlier on this thread. Well, on the advice of a fellow rodmaker, I tried the Epifanes straight and thick out of the can. After thorough stirring I applied just a few drops to each wrap and the results were amazing. The varnish slowly and completely absorbed into the silks leaving no air pockets or shimmers. After spreading the varnish I put it on my rod turner and let it rotate and dry for a few hours in a very warm room.
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eastprong		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 460 06/25/2009 09:46	I haven't tried this yet, but I plan to experiment with the old homebrew woodworker's recipe for an oil/varnish finish as a first coat on wraps: 1 part spar: 1 part boiled linseed oil: 1 part turpentine. I'm guessing that the extra oil will slow the drying and will penetrate better. Anyone try this? --Rich
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