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 Flyfishbill |
Payne Wraps |
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Posts: 1017 12/31/2008 17:56 |
A few of us got together last night to compare a few rods and reels. We looked over a restored Payne 98 with dark brown wraps and a restored Payne 100 with
light brown wraps. We didn't know if Payne used both light and dark brown wraps. Does anyone know the answer and is there any literature available to
describe Payne wraps?
Thanks.
FFBill
Go Bucks! |
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john channer |
#1 | |||
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Posts: 683 12/31/2008 23:01 |
From what I can gather, the original thread Payne used was Belding-Coricelli Java Biege with possibly shellac as a color preserver, B-C is out of business now
and it's no longer available. The closest I've been able to come is a Tire thread, what Angler's Workshop sells as Copper, with Al's Silk
Thread color preserver. Pearsall's Java Brown is supposed to be a match, but I think the Tire is closer. In either case, you want the larger size, 50 for
the Tire or Naples from Pearsall's and color preserve it.
john |
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troutwings |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 197 01/01/2009 12:18 |
FFBill,
Hal Bacon posts here and hopefully will chip in. Payne used Belding Corticelli #5115 in size A also called Jave Brown for the main wraps and BC #3030 yellow in 00 for the trim warps. There were other trim colors used on different models. He used shellac cut 50/50 with alcohol as a color preserver. Many of the Payne refininshes I've seen don't match the original. The wrong color preserver or the wrong varnish makes the wraps too dark or too light. Every refinished Payne I've seen has had too much varnish on the wraps. Original Paynes do not have mirrior smooth, shiny varnished wraps. I'll try to get some pics posted later today....gotta go check on the smoker.. Here we go...payne 101 original... 
Dennis
Last Edited By: troutwings 01/01/2009 13:29.
Edited 1 time.
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greendrake ll |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 1016 01/01/2009 16:11 |
Dennis, Do you know what kind of alcohol Payne cut the shellac with? Denatured or Isopropal?
Will |
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wbinn |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 69 01/01/2009 17:08 |
FFBill,
Hal recently sent me a spool of YLI 227 to match the wraps on a Payne 208. He told me to use blonde shellac with a 3# cut. I purchased shellac flakes and cut them using denatured alcohol. The wraps turned out very close in color to what Dennis's 101 looks like. Winston |
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Flyfishbill |
#5 | |||
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Posts: 1018 01/01/2009 20:22 |
Here is the Payne 100. Boy I hope someone can confirm that Payne also used a lighter wrap.
FFBill
Go Bucks! |
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CustomCane |
Payne Wraps | #6 | ||
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Posts: 54 01/01/2009 20:45 |
To answer the first question - yes, I believe that the Payne company used a few similar yet different shades of brown over the years. I have restored and
repaired many Payne rods for my own customers and for Marty Keane, so it has been my experience to see variations in the wrap colors. Some variations can be
written off as patina changes, but some not. For example, fading can sometimes occur, but when a wrap color is encountered that is darker than the typically
seen Belding-Corticelli 5115, then I have concluded that a darker silk was used. I have found that Belding-Corticelli 5430 is often the match for the darker
brown color. It was produced in two shades (different dye lots) and either may work depending on the rod.
Also, I have found that the Belding-Corticelli 3030 yellow may have been used on newer rods made after Jim Payne's demise in the '70s, but I have a spool of silk that came from the Payne shop that was used for the tipping. It is a milder yellow-gold color produced by the Belding Bros. & Co. (pre Belding-Corticelli?) and it is #999 in size 000. Of course, being that it came from the Payne shop, it is a perfect match. jwg |
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troutwings |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 198 01/04/2009 11:08 |
Will,
I don't KNOW but would gues Payne used DNA rather than isopropal. Dennis |
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Trout120 |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 905 01/04/2009 18:06 |
Flyfishbill,
Might that be a Holloman Payne? I've seen that purple tag on his rods. (or T&T) Trout120 |
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warrick |
98 & 102 | #9 | ||
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Posts: 112 01/04/2009 21:43 |
For whatever it may be worth, below are a couple of shots I've kept for reference on Payne wraps. Though the lighting may be a bit different between the
two shots, on the left is a Mod 98, and to the right is a Mod 102. To me there does appear to be a darker and lighter color difference.
 
(I'd appreciate seeing more examples). Rick |
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Piglegs |
Payne Wraps | #10 | ||
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Posts: 126 01/05/2009 17:04 |
These are from an original 202 1950's vintage:
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Booman2 |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 534 01/06/2009 00:45 |
I have trouble with "Payne" wraps as there are Ed's rods, Jim's, Tom's, and others up to, and including Holloman. One thing I am fairly
sure of is that Jim Payne wrapped at least some of his rods (if not all) with a unique tip top wrap. The wrap is about 3/16" tan thread and then about 3-4
turns of purple thread and then another 3/16" of tan. The purple is often times hard to see, but it is there. Like Gary Howells wraps, it's hard to
see a bump in the pull under ends, they are about perfect. I'm no Payne expert; just throwing this in.
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spruce grouse |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 1191 01/06/2009 13:23 |
FREE ROBERTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Payne102 
Payne 204 |
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Trout120 |
#13 | |||
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Posts: 908 01/06/2009 18:09 |
Bessie Bailey wrapped the Jim Payne rods. She was Tom Bailey's sister. Tom was the gentleman that worked on the hardware for Payne and Leonard.
Trout120 |
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halbacon |
Payne color wraps | #14 | ||
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Posts: 46 01/08/2009 11:30 |
Bessie Baily did wrap all the Payne rods during Tom Baileys time at the shop. Bessie also trained most of the Leonard wrappers at the Payne shop.
I have Bessie's thread box and have some of the original threads. The original brown thread was American Thread Co. #547 Sphinx Brown. this color was used in the 20's 30's. The tipping was yellow Belding 999 in 3/0 and Cutter 207 in 3/0 with Belding 998 Wine 3/0 used as the taging. b Browns used were Belding 5115 A Holland 241 A @ 2/0 Heminway #? 2/0. The green used on Salmon rods was Belding 997 in Both 2/0 @ 3/0. The original American Thread cost 40 cents per box of 12 Spools.each spools was 250 yards. I have pics of the threads anyone interested shoot me a e-mail and I will send them to you. 
Best Hal. |
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