Hollowbuilt versus solid built rods

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bobbeegee		#81	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2322 01/25/2009 00:19	If I wanted a 8' 3 piece 4 wt., I would just buy one of those rods, solid built, instead of a 8' 3 piece 5 wt. solid built. bob Go Heels!!! Last Edited By: bobbeegee 01/25/2009 00:21. Edited 1 time.
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cwood		#82	[url]	[-]
Posts: 482 01/25/2009 08:01	I'm not sure why MountainsAllAround's example wouldn't be a suitable comparison. He sounds like he's buddies with Chris Raine and said he cast two rods identical to each other minus the hollowing. He said he noticed a difference. What's the confusion? Someone asked if anyone had cast two identical tapers from the same maker, one solid and one hollow, someone gives an example of that exact situation and relays their perceived results, and then folks say that isn't' an appropriate comparison. Man, the winter nasties are setting in. Personally, all I need is someone like AJ to say there is a difference and that difference translates into an increased performance in some tapers if the hollowing is done approprately. The real proof to me is picking up one of his rods and casting it, which I have done, and they cast and fish great. Period. If you don't like the idea, don't buy one. If you like the idea and have an opportunity to cast or own one, you should do so. You might like it. If not, fish a solid rod. It all seems pretty simple to me. Let's be honest. There are a lot of makers out there these days and it makes for a competitive market. Makers have to experiment and offer something a little different in order to be competitive. Sometimes those experiments will produce something that increases rods performance (AJs et al.HB rods), and other times they may be just gimics to sell rods (many examples but I won't post them). I think there have been enough satisfied customers from AJ, Reams, Brandin, etc. to prove that hollowing works for some builders and their customers like the rods.
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David Dornblaser		#83	[url]	[-]
Posts: 259 01/25/2009 13:10	Bill, Yes, it makes sense. And, I assume that is why some tapers take to hollow-building, while others do not; and, why hollow-builders often tweak tapers or design their own. Creakycane, yes, I have half a dozen, or so, hollow-built rods with a few more on the way. - David www.UpperMidwestFlyFishing.com - fly fishing in the Upper Midwest. Spring Creeks to Smallies to Steelhead.
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MountainsAllAround		#84	[url]	[-]
Posts: 346 01/25/2009 15:01	I admit to being confused a little by the reception (including the half-dozen outside communications); the concept of a side-by-side comparison was at the genesis of this thread. Having added that to this discussion, I think I'll bow out.
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David Dornblaser		#85	[url]	[-]
Posts: 75 01/25/2009 18:52	Mountains, Thank you for your input. Your side-by-side comparison is informative and is appreciated. - David
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bobbeegee		#86	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2326 01/25/2009 19:34	If a hollow built rod somehow makes that much difference to you, then please buy and fish the heck out of it. I just can not see the advantage it offers over a solid built rod. If you want a 4 weight in a certain length then buy a HB 4 weight if that's the design rod you prefer. In my opinion, some builders solid built 4 weights would offer you the same performance, if not, then drop down to a 3 weight solid built. Whatever! My simple question was.........if someone handed you a rod and stated "cast this one and tell me if it's solid or hollow built" could you tell? Not a side by side comparison of hollow/solid!!!! I'm not trying to be argumentative, and if you prefer a hollowbuilt rod, as stated, them please buy them. I, personally, do not see the advantage. Bob Go Heels!!! Last Edited By: bobbeegee 01/25/2009 19:37. Edited 1 time.
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AJ Bamboo		#87	[url]	[-]
Posts: 780 01/26/2009 03:59	this is starting to remind me of a Monty Python skit..... and i think you know which one i mean... i will engage in argument but not simple contradiction bye aj
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cwood		#88	[url]	[-]
Posts: 486 01/26/2009 07:36	I agree. It reminds me of a similar "argument" I get in with some of my plastic rod fishing friends.......... "By god there is no way I'm fishing one of those expensive wood rods until you explain to me exactly why they are better than graphite, and I mean I need to know the exact scientific information that explains to me in a robust manner how they are significantly better, and I don't want to hear the fru fru crap about them being pretty and historical. This is fishing man, and we are here to fish, not look like a bunch of English pansy boys....." and so on. My typical answer... "I like them because they sure fish nice and they just feel right". Sometimes you just can't answer a question when someone has made up their mind before that question is asked. Oh well, plenty of good info in this thread if folks will read the words. I don't even own a hollowbuilt rod (yet) but appreciate when makers like AJ and Eugene are willing to share valuable information. It must be funny for such makers to listen to fishermen acting like we know everything there is to know about rod construction (I can be guilty as well). Thanks for the Q/A post, AJ. That will be a valuable reference. Tight lines! CWood Last Edited By: cwood 01/26/2009 07:45. Edited 1 time.
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Hollowbuilt	Hollowbuilt rods in the hand	#89	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 01/26/2009 09:39	Hi Bobby, I don't think you could just pick up a built rod and state one way or another whether it was hollowbuilt. Aluminum seat vs. nickel silver vs. type of wood spacer....Super swiss, SD, truncated, or micro ferrules...it all changes the weight of the finished rod. Casting it would be another story, if the rod was done right. Removing mass from the rod makes it start faster/easier and stop faster/easier. The rod can dampen quicker. Means less line bounce. The best answer so far has been from 16PMD. Even though it wasn't exactly what you were looking for. I think it is an important part of rodmaking. I have hollowbuilt all of my rods for quite a while. My machine has a Starrett micrometer head on it. It is a very exact process. While picking one up and hefting it might not tell you much, casting and fishing one would be a different story. Hope this helps, Chris
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creakycane		#90	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2041 01/27/2009 16:49	I was PM'd by a board member who argues that the loss of bamboo feel in hollowbuilt rods comes from the loss of mass throughout the rod - his words were along the lines that the "rod casts itself nature" of many well designed cane tapers loses something when hollowed, since mass is lost through the rod and thus the same momentum transfer to the line requires a faster stroke (too fast, is his argument) - this is certainly true (I think) in graphite rods, if I am getting my physics right. I strung up a couple hollowbuilt rods (8' 5 wt and 8' 3" for a 4) and they felt much more pleasant than the Sage 9' 5 wt I have in the garage from that "feel" or "casting sweetness" perspective - but did seem to lack a certain suppleness that the 2 solid built rods I strung up seemed to have up and down the rod and at all distances. Perhaps just between season crazies, perhaps just the particular rods I have, but it makes one wonder about that loss of mass - that's the issue I take with some of posts in this thread that touted removing the mass in the rod as ALL GOOD - from a momentum transfer perspective, it may be not so good? I've heard it argued that the little ferrule, and its weight, improves the casting of some tapers that are not as good it 2 pc version, so maybe there's something to this loss of mass good/bad tradeoff? Last Edited By: creakycane 01/27/2009 17:19. Edited 2 times.
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16 pmd		#91	[url]	[-]
Posts: 639 01/27/2009 17:27	As a big fan of hollow rods, I see your point and sort of agree with it. I think hollowing improves the PERFORMANCE of a rod, but I can see that it can lessen that sweet self-loading feel that some solid rods have. They have that nice, subtle swing from the butt that makes them feel like they cast themselves. It's analagous to the big luxury car that has the nice smooth ride, but may not corner or accelerate as well as a higher performance car with stiffer suspension. You trade off some performance for the nicer feel and the choice between the two is a personal preference. I still think that casting performance is markedly improved by hollowing and furthermore that hollow tapers can compensate to allow for that sweet-swinging feel, but definitely take your point.
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creakycane		#92	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2043 01/27/2009 20:06	Thanks 16 PMD - I agree, it seems you can keep the sweetness (if hollowed carefully and the internal taper is optimized) and improve responsiveness, especially in those over 8' 4 and 5 wts. Thanks for your thoughts!
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bob2935	Hollow vs. solid	#93	[url]	[-]
Posts: 782 01/29/2009 00:09	I work in the mental health field and I am getting some major staff meeting flashbacks right now. Over analyzing and over processing is the nature of people in my field. In one staff meeting I blurted out " I expect you guys to be processing your bowel movements at any second". What I am getting at is that this topic is exhausting. Remember keep it simple and do not wallow in theory. Obviously we all like different tapers and styles of rods. We all have different casting styles and it does get better with years of experience. Hollow or solid whatever you like. I like both and both have there strengths and limitations. As much as I like hollow built rods in longer lengths my best casting big water rod is a 8'6" six weight Simroe. Go figure. There is no right or wrong when it comes to rod taper and design. It's all good. Peace Out Bohemian Bob
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Larry Swearingen		#94	[url]	[-]
Posts: 391 01/29/2009 09:30	So Bob2939, Are you taking notes on this group then ? Please be sure to give individual credit if using any of us as subjects in future professional papers. OK, you can use handles and not real names if yer afraid of legal actions. Larry Swearingen New Hoosier
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bob2935	Wacky Group	#95	[url]	[-]
Posts: 783 01/29/2009 23:32	Hi Larry I'm afraid noone in my field would believe me. It's a wacky but fun group. Bob
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thegubster		#96	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1539 01/30/2009 09:00	creakycane wrote: I was PM'd by a board member who argues that the loss of bamboo feel in hollowbuilt rods comes from the loss of mass throughout the rod - his words were along the lines that the "rod casts itself nature" of many well designed cane tapers loses something when hollowed, since mass is lost through the rod and thus the same momentum transfer to the line requires a faster stroke (too fast, is his argument) - this is certainly true (I think) in graphite rods, if I am getting my physics right. I strung up a couple hollowbuilt rods (8' 5 wt and 8' 3" for a 4) and they felt much more pleasant than the Sage 9' 5 wt I have in the garage from that "feel" or "casting sweetness" perspective - but did seem to lack a certain suppleness that the 2 solid built rods I strung up seemed to have up and down the rod and at all distances. Perhaps just between season crazies, perhaps just the particular rods I have, but it makes one wonder about that loss of mass - that's the issue I take with some of posts in this thread that touted removing the mass in the rod as ALL GOOD - from a momentum transfer perspective, it may be not so good? I've heard it argued that the little ferrule, and its weight, improves the casting of some tapers that are not as good it 2 pc version, so maybe there's something to this loss of mass good/bad tradeoff? 16PMD As a big fan of hollow rods, I see your point and sort of agree with it. I think hollowing improves the PERFORMANCE of a rod, but I can see that it can lessen that sweet self-loading feel that some solid rods have. They have that nice, subtle swing from the butt that makes them feel like they cast themselves. It's analagous to the big luxury car that has the nice smooth ride, but may not corner or accelerate as well as a higher performance car with stiffer suspension. You trade off some performance for the nicer feel and the choice between the two is a personal preference. I still think that casting performance is markedly improved by hollowing and furthermore that hollow tapers can compensate to allow for that sweet-swinging feel, but definitely take your point. In reading/catching up on this thread recently and after having posted initially on my prefs. for hollowbuilts, coming strongly from my personal elbow/arm issues, before I hit "send" the opinions expressed in these two posts were in the forefront of my head! I have had these same feelings before and dismissed it. Why? Couple of reasons. One, because I have two rods that are longer (8 ft) one being solid (a copy of a Leonard #50 4/5wt) and the other "quite" hollowed (Powell "B" modified to a 4wt).. I really like both of these rods a lot, for what they are. They are quite different, in a good way. And two, as a serious exploring backyard caster, fairly new to the canes, a recurring curiosity has often made me wonder if I wasn't looking to get back to the "feel" of my recently set-aside graphites. Mainly this is because I've found that on a couple of other solid built rods the (cough, cough) "heft" of the material was a bonus. Dangit, I hope this doesn't sound like I'm back-tracking (confused) I'm not. It's just that the impression posted by Creaky and 16PMD has certainly entered my head, more than once.! So Bobbeegee...has all this answered your original query? Good topic Bob! I think I'll continue to allow myself an open mind... I hope ol' Dave Norling never reads this. He makes hollowbuilts, wonderful rods ... and I love them!! Still....that's the beauty of this stuff. Jeremy.
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bobbeegee		#97	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2338 01/30/2009 19:03	Well Jeremy, I'm still amazed at the sometimes passionate responses this thread seems to have generated. I'm also glad that it seems to have stimulated a few to maybe re-think how they view hollowbuilt rods? It was, in my opinion, a very simple question that somehow "got lost in translation?" As previously stated, "if you can not live and fish without a hollowbuilt, and it totally trips your trigger, then fish on with 'em my brother!!" Thanks to all who responded. A lot of the posts were most interesting and thought-provoking. I'm hopeful others feel as I...........this is what our, and any good Forum is about.........thoughtful debate and discussion, with civility!!? Bob Go Heels!!!
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