What are the most important innovations in bamboo rods following the development of six-sided cane? ( I've taken the liberty of ruling out four-sided and
five-sided rods.) Okay, there may have been advances in glue, but rods from a hundred years ago don't seem to be coming apart. Materials for rod hardware
have possibly made progress, but perfectly lightweight and strong materials like bakelite have come and gone. We're still using German silver from the 19th
Century or aluminum/aluminum alloy, also from the 19th Century or earlier. Haven't seen much titanium on cane rods. Cork hasn't changed that much,
though some would argue that the quality on average may have come down a bit. Flaming, pioneered by builders like Edwards, is not universally acknowledged as
an improvement, and many modern builders appear to neglect the flame altogether. Varnish impregnation and ammonia baking are practiced by some but generally
deemed of questionable value. The cane itself still comes from the same place in China that it did a hundred years ago, imported by the same company no less.
Even the name "Tonkin" has not undergone modernization into the pinyin system now used for virtually all other modern Chinese place names. And
shouldn't some geneticist be working on an improved strain? (One Japanese builder uses Japanese cane on some of his rods, but that exception pretty much
proves the rule about Tonkin cane use.) So what are the enduring innovations? Certain tapers by the likes of Dickerson, Leonard, Payne, Edwards, Garrison,
Young and others, including parabolics, have gained prominence and, in some cases notoriety, but are they the only thing new? Varnish still looks the same. How
much can you change the formula for things like varnish? The differences in varnish are so subtle that they go right over my head. When the dust settles, what
differentiates an Edwards or Dickerson from the 1920s or 1930s from a modern rod? Hope this isn't blasphemy, but, all things considered, they look pretty
much the same. Is our taste in rods so resistant to change? Agate stripping guides have been around for an awfully long time. (I won't even mention
aluminum rod tubes and rod bags.) Or have cane rods seen the end of history? Or am I missing something? I don't mean to suggest that there is something
wrong here, and I don't raise these questions as a form of criticism. However, just about everything over the last hundred years has undergone considerable
change, often interpreted as "progress." Have cane rods simply reached a state of perfection not achieved in other things? After all, we frequently
encounter "Perfection" or "Perfectionist" rods and "Perfect" reels associated with cane rods. What's going on here?
This forum began as Clark's Classic Bamboo Rod Forum, founded by Clark Davis for all who share a passion for classic rods. The forum is now owned by Whitefish Press aka Dr. Todd Larson - banjo.
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Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again?
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 RPL |
Bamboo and Innovation: End of History Again? |
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Posts: 130 03/04/2009 21:00 |
Last Edited By: RPL 03/04/2009 21:51.
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 Short Tip |
#1 | |||
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Posts: 994 03/04/2009 22:08 Moderator |
That's exactly the appeal! We've found our own little cul-de-sac, where things aren't re-invented every fishing season. Thus proving, at least to
ourselves, that there isn't much new under the sun.
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warrick |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 137 03/04/2009 22:21 |
First of all I'd like to compliment you on your very thoughtful essay.
Taking quads and penta's out of the equation certainly shortens the discussion. I think that your mention of titanium hardware (perhaps coupled with hollow building) could add a miniscule advance in weight reduction. I'm surprised that none of the more exotic builders haven't used it yet, or perhaps they have? Interesting points you make, perhaps the perfection factor is in fact complete. Not many things we can all say that about. |
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firehole |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 3737 03/04/2009 23:54 Local user |
Bamboo ferrules by Marcelo and graphite ferrules by Wayne Maca plus his hollowbuilding technique.
Dennis |
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16 pmd |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 667 03/05/2009 01:08 |
Although I understand there may have been hollow rods longer ago, I think E.C. Powell's patented hollowbuilding technique of the 1930's has led to a
line of hollowbuilders of today. They have expanded the envelope of rods that can now be made longer for a given line weight without sacrificing crisp and
lively response. To a lesser extent, experiments in ferrules - bamboo, truncated, micro, fiberglass, graphite and spliced joints (not exactly new, but revived)
- may catch on and allow for further expanding of that same envelope. I think Wayne Maca's fairly radical building techniques have the potential to push
the envelope even farther, but the jury is still out. I favor these experiments and think that building rods in the same way they've been built for almost
a century is fine, but isn't accomplishing anything that hasn't already been perfected by the likes of Payne and others. I, for one, hope innovations
in bamboo rodmaking aren't over.
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Marcelo Calviello |
Thinking out of the box. | #5 | ||
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Posts: 1039 03/05/2009 10:23 Rod Maker |
I'm always looking for innovations. I don´t know if they are relevant but for sure they add personality to any of my rods and really work.
The BOBFS (Bamboo on Bamboo Ferrule System) 
Native cane 
Jaguar Flamed Treatment. 
BiPower construction. 
New tubes design. 
Salt water tested series. These are only some of the particularities of my rods, they are not relevant, they will not change the world but they are mine and my contribution to the craft.
Last Edited By: Marcelo Calviello 03/05/2009 10:31.
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Gnome |
#6 | |||
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Posts: 1958 03/05/2009 10:49 King of the Gnomes |
It would be sad to think that we are at the end of the line with cane rod making!!!
No room for new build styles and or hardware would be a limiting factor and would tend to inhibit the advance of the art of working with cane. There are other types of hardware available that are not used for the most part due to the limitations imposed by meeting the "Classical" look of a bamboo rod. I hate agates because they wear out as evidenced by untold numbers of rods in my collection that where fished hard and have worn out agate tip tops or stripping guides. But that is the excepted standard due to tradition. There are other alternatives that are mostly un-used because they do not have the "look" that is supposed to be part of a Classical bamboo rod. There is also a bit of a dogma attached to any radical changes in build styles and that is also part of not meeting the "Classical" model. 1 example would be; It was a long stretch (20-30 years) before the English trolling rod guide was excepted and became our standard snake guide. I will have fished braided 4 strip rods for almost two years now and have found it to be a very good in close rod that tracks pure and dampens like nothing I have ever cast before; but it is so out of the box that most people have to be pushed into casting it. One flick of the wrist will cause the rod to load and unload with no shock or sine waves in the blank. Advancement comes slowly and with a bit of a price, but the innovators like Wayne and Marcelo and there are a few more out there who are pushing the limits and are willing to pay that price; my hat is off to one and all of you mentioned or not. Jeff |
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pcg |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 2226 03/05/2009 21:02 Admin |
Advancement comes slowly and with a bit of a price, but the innovators like Wayne and Marcelo and there are a few more out there who are pushing the limits and are willing to pay that price; my hat is off to one and all of you mentioned or not.Jeff fails to mention himself as one of the genuine innovators. So I'll do so. 
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maruoff |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 888 03/06/2009 02:49 |
with all due and deserved respect to Marcelo and his BOBFS-system I would like to mention, as so often here, Bjarne Fries as the inventor of the bamboo
ferruled rod (and of course many special tapers no one else has made before him; also his rod aesthetics were a totally new way of looking at bamboo rods).
having said that I am sure that some obscure rodmaker has made rods with bamboo ferrules before maybe even as early as the 19th century? |
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firehole |
#9 | |||
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Posts: 3743 03/06/2009 02:57 Local user |
Maruoff,
I thought I heard another maker in Europe used bamboo ferrules. Now I know who was the first to use them but like you said some obscure maker may have made them too before Fries. Dennis |
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Marcelo Calviello |
Who was first the egg or the hen?... Who knows | #10 | ||
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Posts: 1040 03/06/2009 09:29 Rod Maker |
With all my respect also, I think that is not so relevant who was the first Marcus. Do any of you remember who create the metal ferrule? ... BOBFS, FIBHS,
"XXZ32e"... are the consequence of "thinking out of the box". Glass makers and "G" makers have done this and why not Bamboo
makers?. I have a great respect to Mr. Bjarne Fries, Mr. Hans-Jurgen Schlecht, Mr. Alberto Portarelli... and any other who push to show the result of this
great innovation. Also any of us are always looking the way to improve it. It's our natural way of work, it's passion... Each one, fight for his own
system... but all together thinking in the same way and proud with the final product. Again, for me is not relevant who was the first... the really important
thing is that we are convinced about our systems and we push together to show them to the bamboo comunity.
From Argentina Marcelo
Last Edited By: Marcelo Calviello 03/06/2009 09:54.
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mattcliff |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 77 03/06/2009 23:15 |
Hollow building. That appears to be the one major innovation. Powell and Winston did it sme 75 years ago, but several builders have convinced me that modern
techniques are more sophisticated and lighten the rod to a greater degree, especially where it counts out in the tips. Other than that, Short Tip has it
exactly right. The charm is that innovation is NOT the name of the game. With all respect to Wayne Maca, if we wanted graphite ferrules, nost of us would buy
graphite rods.
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Tim Anderson |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 22 03/06/2009 23:25 |
Innovation need not mean major change. For example, innovation in the Otto-cycle automobile engine has been mostly through gradual change. Mr. Daimler and
Mr. Ford would both recognize almost every aspect of the function of a modern automobile engine.
A split-cane rod is a much simpler system than an automobile engine, so we should expect that gradual changes in our rods might involve few major jumps. American builders pioneered shorter, lighter rods as well as simplified and better metal ferrules. Recently, outside of the US, Marcelo and Bjarne Fries rediscovered and/or reinvigorated bamboo ferrules. In the US, Jeff's braided rods are anything but conventional and, as 16 PMD has mentioned, Wayne Maca has certainly introduced new ideas. A boost to change has been the relatively recent sharing of information about building split-cane rods. Access to information is a common driver of new ideas. Ready availability of equipment, such as good planing forms and the Morgan Hand Mill, also provides stimulus for innovation. Stay tuned, I think it is safe to say that the history of our rods will be continued next week. |
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Booman2 |
#13 | |||
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Posts: 555 03/07/2009 01:03 |
I think I saw some experimental bamboo ferrules 20 about years ago, either at Hartzell's shop, or Winston (Brackett). Howells spoke to me about using
graphite ferrules but said he didn't have the tons of money required to perfect them. I've fished a great Japanese rod that had zero finish, the
thinking being that bamboo does really well in the rain, with no help from varnish. I've also fished a rod sprayed with one .0005 coat of auto finish:
tough and durable. Then, there are hollow built rods with cedar cores, graphite cores, balsa, and none at all. Just things to think about. For me, my old rods
are just fine.
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WatercolorMan |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 1328 03/07/2009 03:43 |
I always liked the short butt and extra long tip to go with it, placing the ferrule in a different location was a nice innovation. That may have come from
breaking a rod and doing some field repair that lead to the new design. I'm not sure who did it first. There was also the the combination rods that the
Powell family is so well known for, although I believe it is a much older idea. The spiral rod is a nice variation that goes back to the 1890, I think but
later new tools and some innovations gives us a change in the cross section of the hex rod giving us a stiffer rod section, a very cool idea from an
engineering point of view. There is a builder from California named Barry Kurstin who used a core of graphite inside some of his rods. I'm not sure who was
first I know Ray Gould made many rods using this idea as well. I'm also not sure who made the first nodeless rod but it may have been the result of
scarfing rods after damaging them. The other part would be the development of new glues to use. Lets not leave out the short rod tapers and designs that we
sometime call banty rods. Short rods are very big these days but not so much in the early days.
I think many of the major innovation involved the design of tools used in building the rods themselves. But you do hear about some builders using tools that are 70 years old and have been handed down. Then there is the Heat treatment and moisture control developments that have taken place.
Last Edited By: WatercolorMan 03/09/2009 20:43.
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Gnome |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 1960 03/07/2009 09:52 King of the Gnomes |
Alan,
The use of scarfing goes back at least 200 years and was the first technique used to join a bamboo section to the wood thus taking the first steps toward the cane rods of today. It probably was not for a repair but was done to stop needing to repair the delicat wood tips of the day. And as far as scarfing more durable pieces onto the end of the tips that can be traced back over 500 years ago and it was the use of baleen for a more durable tip and it was written about by Mascall in the late 1500's in his book titled The Arte of Angling. To come up with something new in this art is very hard as we have been trying to figure out the right rod for over 4,000 years and we are getting close but I think we have a ways to go yet to find the limitations of that lovelly reed. Da gnome Jeff |
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freestoner.fiberglassflyro... |
#16 | |||
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Posts: 163 03/08/2009 01:59 |
Bamboo guides- or bridge frames for guide rings, at least.
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Pentalux |
#17 | |||
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Posts: 62 03/08/2009 11:18 |
Great thread. If we are discussing innovation which by definition (according to Websters Dictionary) means - 1 : the introduction of something new 2 : a new
idea, method, or device : Not sure if its fair to exclude the quad and the penta rod forms from the discussion. "As makers we stand on the shoulders of
the masters who came before us" - I believe the very latest innovations have been a result of the culmination of this knowledge - the available tapers,
glues and overall knowledge base in general... Obviously I'm a bit bias as to the value of the rods shape as a new innovation but as Marcello commented;
"the really important thing is that we are convinced about our systems and we push together to show them to the bamboo community." The rods that I am now building are five sided but what makes them an innovation is the unusual geometry of the build - they only want to bend forward and back - on plane completely fighting torque. The shape also is allowing me to build overall blanks lighter than those built as six sided with same action and taper... I believe this is an innovation in rodmaking however slight. That said one cannot deny the real purpose of any and or all of it, the innovations and the rods that represent them - How does it fish?/Does it improve ones level of pleasure/performance on the stream? Thats what really counts and under that rule its still tough to beat a lot of rods built before most of us were even born. But as craftsmen we cannot help but try. Rob 
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Bruce Day |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 29 03/12/2009 12:20 |
Mr. Pentalux, the wood case for the pictured rod is quite striking. How can I contact the maker?
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Peales |
Is there a need? | #19 | ||
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Posts: 21 03/13/2009 02:42 |
I really doubt that there will be any significant advancements to the craft of building fly rods with bamboo. Most of the materials as they are utilized
perform well for the tasks of fishing. Do you suppose side-by-side shotgun makers are scratching their heads about the next great innovation? Or that a
knife-maker can improve upon the classic knives that have already been designed?
There are many products out there of great utility that have reached their zenith, their limit. When a person(or group of people) start messing around with 'innovative' ideas for these products it often times ends up lapsing into a degenerative exercise. History is rich with forgotten self-indulgences. A good designer knows when not to design... when something is already well designed. Those energies could have been better spent addressing a real design problem. There is no 'problem' with bamboo fly rods. Can I say the same for everything else in this sport? I would sure like to have a pair of waders that don't leak. Designs at this point can only be tweaked. Aesthetics can be refined, but won't be able to improve upon what has already been done. Craft can be mastered. Chemistry and metallurgy will continue to develop. Isn't that about it? To what degree can you participate on these fronts and be satisfied? I'm surprised that there aren't more postings that celebrate this archetypical instrument.
Last Edited By: Peales 03/13/2009 02:45.
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Gnome |
#20 | |||
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Posts: 1970 03/13/2009 09:09 King of the Gnomes |
Peales,
Where would we be if Hiram Leonard and others had held your views? we would be fishing with 20' ash, greenheart and lancewood rods. As a modern maker I feel that we have only scratched the potential of the material itself. The Classic bamboo rod can be made strictly to the requirements of the tradition and yet also has the flexibility as a material to be used in different fashions to achieve the same result. The rods and people we admire so much where Innovators and they where not held in check by a view of the way it has to be done that adheres strictly to tradition. To advance the art is to celibrate and expand the base that the past masters have given us. They where not afraid to experiment and attempt to enlarge the quiver of techniques applicable to making rods out of bamboo. Tradition is good untill it leads to stagnation and entrophy and then it is not good. Jeff And as far as your question and I qoute you; " To what degree can you participate on these fronts and be satisfied? " How about a bamboo rod that loads and unloads with no additional ocillations or sine waves after the first load and unload, a rod that tracks perfectly true and its point of recovery after being flexed is instantaeous? I am very satisfied with the performance of the rod and it is so far out of the box it is not funny. and there are a few who have cast that rod and will verify this statement. Ask Bob Nunley how the braided bamboo rod performs, it may be ugly but it is a very viable tool. As a large number of fish will personally testify to how well it whipped them;-) |
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