"Catskill" Tapers

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ellensdad	"Catskill" Tapers		Lead	[-]
Posts: 104 04/11/2009 18:50	Tags : None How would you describe the action of a Catskill taper? What are its strengths and weaknesses? Who was the originator of this style? Thanks for any help.
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czkid	Old vs. New	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3929 04/11/2009 22:12 Moderator	What Chuck is saying is that us "old farts" that still wrist cast and use silk lines "aren't with it" which is pretty far from the truth. If you look at the price of Leonard and Payne rods you can see how out of date and unpopular they are. Of course there were a host of other "Hudson Valley" makers that were equally unpopular, and thus their rods carry no value as well. My small collection of "Hudson Valley" or "Catskill" rods are very handy for fishing places like the Blue Ridge, Smoky Mountains, and other areas with lots of "blue lines". If you manage to get down to the Bamboo Bash in Townsend you can handle a bunch of that type rod and cast them on waters ideally suited for their action. Ralph
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ellensdad		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 106 04/12/2009 07:39	Blue Quill wrote: Hi Ellensdad, When most people say "Catskill taper" they are referring to the tapers of Payne and Leonard. They are also referred to as "Hudson Valley" tapers as the Payne and Leonard facilities were not quite located in the Catskills but in their foothills (less important to most of us but an important point to locals). They are generally progressive action, with a fairly stiff butt, and the tip working down the rod relatively little (figure about 1/4 of the rod length). Most of these rods were designed around wrist-casting conventions popular at that time (upper arm parallel to the ground, forearm vertical and relatively stiff, and wrist doing most of the work). Obviously they still work, but they were not really intended for the lines we use or for the way most of us cast today. I just posted a response regarding grip design. The same literature I referenced for grips are excellent resources for the information you are looking for. Chuck Happy Easter! Chuck, thanks for the explanation but to me this seems counter-intuitive to how I have always felt about tip-action rods. To me, it seems that a tip-action rod would respond better to a shorter tip arc (less wrist). Do I have this wrong?
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oneculm		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 521 04/12/2009 08:09	A persons casting style has nothing to do with the taper of a rod . A good caster is a good caster. Last Edited By: oneculm 04/12/2009 08:40. Edited 1 time.
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pcg		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2611 04/12/2009 08:27 Admin	Dave's correct. A good caster adapts to just about any rod within moments, compensating and adjusting and almost intuitively making the line sing. I'm not one, but I've fished with a few men (and one woman) who cast equally well with virtually any rod. I think the wrist theory sounds good in discussion, but may not have much application when a good fisherman steps out into a river.
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tiptop		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 536 04/12/2009 08:30	Blue Quill wrote: Hi Ellensdad, When most people say "Catskill taper" they are referring to the tapers of Payne and Leonard. They are also referred to as "Hudson Valley" tapers as the Payne and Leonard facilities were not quite located in the Catskills but in their foothills (less important to most of us but an important point to locals). They are generally progressive action, with a fairly stiff butt, and the tip working down the rod relatively little (figure about 1/4 of the rod length). Most of these rods were designed around wrist-casting conventions popular at that time (upper arm parallel to the ground, forearm vertical and relatively stiff, and wrist doing most of the work). Obviously they still work, but they were not really intended for the lines we use or for the way most of us cast today. I just posted a response regarding grip design. The same literature I referenced for grips are excellent resources for the information you are looking for. Chuck Hmm. I own a leonard, 3 FET's, several payne clones by AJ and have cast a couple originals and none have the action you describe. They all are progressive, but flex way further down into the rod than 1/4 of the rod length. Does your "Catskill" description only apply to some of the rods from these makers?
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laxdad		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 50 04/12/2009 12:45	tiptop wrote: Blue Quill wrote: Hi Ellensdad, When most people say "Catskill taper" they are referring to the tapers of Payne and Leonard. They are also referred to as "Hudson Valley" tapers as the Payne and Leonard facilities were not quite located in the Catskills but in their foothills (less important to most of us but an important point to locals). They are generally progressive action, with a fairly stiff butt, and the tip working down the rod relatively little (figure about 1/4 of the rod length). Most of these rods were designed around wrist-casting conventions popular at that time (upper arm parallel to the ground, forearm vertical and relatively stiff, and wrist doing most of the work). Obviously they still work, but they were not really intended for the lines we use or for the way most of us cast today. I just posted a response regarding grip design. The same literature I referenced for grips are excellent resources for the information you are looking for. Chuck Hmm. I own a leonard, 3 FET's, several payne clones by AJ and have cast a couple originals and none have the action you describe. They all are progressive, but flex way further down into the rod than 1/4 of the rod length. Does your "Catskill" description only apply to some of the rods from these makers? Hmm here also....I own 4 "Catskill" type rods (several others as well), a pre fire Leonard 50, Leonard 39, Leonard Duracane 7', a Payne clone and none act as Blue Quill describes them...at least not in my hand but again, I'm an, "old fart" of 73 and been casting cane since the 50's so I may not know how to describe a rods action...I will admit though, that the 39 has more tip action than the others but what a sweet rod on the E. Branch. Blue Quill, how would you describe the hinge action in the 50 DF if it were limited to 1/4 tip action? Laxdad
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creakycane		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2165 04/12/2009 13:07	I'd wager the action limited to top 1/4 of rod is an exageration. But I hink I know the type of taper BQ is talking about - very fine tipped and crisp, nice for dry flies in pocket water and runs..... Have an Aroner here that is like that....
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tim simbari		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 349 04/12/2009 13:45	The tapers refer to faster actions than several of the eastern makers developed. Often they sport a somewhat swelled butt. As to casting style an current lines frankly that's a mystery, they work wonderfully with current lines and most are great casters which is likely a large reason they bring premium prices. As to wrist casting design, that is an opinion I've heards nowhere before but here and with all due respect it is not correct. Last Edited By: tim simbari 04/12/2009 18:41. Edited 2 times.
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hopkintoncane		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 388 04/12/2009 16:55	The train of thought here is very interesting to me. I am going to jump in here with what I believe is a legitimate question, not an argumentative inquiry or rebuke, but simply a request for feedback from those who have been at this for much longer than I. I was hoping to hear others interpretations of the definition of progressive action. Based on what my ears have heard, my eyes have read, and my hand and brain tell me when I'm casting, I thought that a progressive action rod was neither a tip action nor a parabolic rod, but rather, a rod that responded to greater weight/stress (more line or higher line/hand speeds) by progressively transferring the management of stress to lower and thus, stiffer portions of the blank, in a somewhat predictable, straight forward mathematical manner. Thus, as the load increases by some factor, the rod reacts in a proportional way, eventually reaching a point where "high" or "heavy" loading affects all portions of the taper in manner that is both equally inversely proportional to the cross-sectional dimension of the rod and directly proportional to the distance from the tip. And as a result, in maximum stress situations, the caster can sense that the taper is now working in the cork, as that part of the rod has begun to "do its thing". Do I have that about right??? The reason I ask the question, is because I would not describe the action of a rod that flexes principally in the final 25 percent of its length as progressive. I would describe that action as a "complex" taper that favors bending in the tip. Or am I wrong, can such a rod be described as progressive? Todd
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hopkintoncane		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 390 04/12/2009 18:04	I guess we lost BQ in this discussion, perhaps we can move the discussion to another thread at some point, if further discussion is warranted. Todd
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tim simbari		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 350 04/12/2009 18:47	I've always taken progresive to be fuller flexing, i.e. a more medium action rod. I'd suppose slow action can be progresive as well and thus, the potential danger of single word descriptions. Last Edited By: tim simbari 04/12/2009 23:23. Edited 1 time.
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tim simbari		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 351 04/12/2009 18:57	creakycane wrote: I'd wager the action limited to top 1/4 of rod is an exageration. But I hink I know the type of taper BQ is talking about - very fine tipped and crisp, nice for dry flies in pocket water and runs..... Have an Aroner here that is like that.... Yours is a good point and frankly I have heard and would agree that "Catskill" action and "dry fly" action used interchangably by a lot of experienced rod men. Although the Aroner you describe is pretty typical I also have a 7 1/2' #4 that I have fished the east and west Deleware and it will comfortably sling out plenty of line so you don't feel disatvantaged on bigger water. I'd still call it fast by most standards. Last Edited By: tim simbari 04/12/2009 23:24. Edited 1 time.
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DrakeBob		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1314 04/12/2009 22:06 Formerly Drake	It's interesting. Six years ago, when I first joined the forum, we were debating what a "Catskill rod" was and it seems as though very little progress has been made. Let me try to recount what little consensus came from those conversations about "Catskill rods, school, companies," etc. Depending on the context, "it" refers to: 1. A specific line of rods developed and sold by H. L. Leonard and collectively referred to as "The H. L. Leonard Catskill Fly Rods." From the 1934 William Mills & Son catalog, these rods include the "Two-Piece 'Baby' Catskill Rods" (models 37, 38, 38H); the "Fairy Catskill Rods" (models 38 ½, 39, 40); and the "Regular Catskill Rods" (models 36, 42, 46, 45, 44). By the 1962 Wm. Mills catalog, the models have been expanded to include the 37H and 38 ACM in the "Baby Catskill" category; the "Fairy Catskills have added the 36 while dropping the 38 ½; and the "Regular Catskill Rods" now include the 38 ½ (which used to be a "Fairy"), and dropped the 36 in favor of the 35, which is actually the same as the 36, just the model number changed. Are you with me? The 1974 Leonard Catalog includes no "Catskill Rods" (save those made from fiberglass), but I'm willing to bet you could have ordered one of the older models if you wanted to. The very last Leonard Catalog ('84, I believe) includes a "Catskill Series" (models 36, 37, 38 39) and the "Catskills Special Series" (models 16, 36, 37, 38, 39), the difference in the two series being cosmetic - blonde vs. flamed. Still with me? Throughout the 50 years I've referenced, there are certain similar characteristics to these rods. They are remarkably light in weight for their length, they are made for light lines, have very fine tips (as you'd expect) and typically diminutive grips. The earlier Leonard catalog ('34) describes the rods thusly: "The celebrated Catskill Rods were first made many years ago and are now more popular than ever for wet fly fishing." [That sounds like a slower rod to me]. In the 1984 catalog, they say: "… the Catskills, a series of rods intended above all to be dainty and of extreme light weight. The current Catskills, though updated in taper design [yes, they changed], still adhere to those principles…. For light lines [the heaviest is a 7 ½' 4wt] these rods epitomize the finest elements in a handcrafted fly rod - ultralight weight, diminutive fittings and superb actions intended to provide the flawless presentation of miniature flies… Actions are ultra-quick… and built for the dry fly specialist…" [Say what?] 2. The "Catskill School of Rod Making." Generically refers to rods first developed and built with the same methodology, overall look and range of actions (yet there were lots of those actions) in that family tree that Leonard started. Certainly this included Hawes and Payne at the least. I'll leave it to others to argue who else of the classic makers might be included. Today's direct descendants and heirs to this tradition are Ted Simroe, Walt Carpenter, Bob Taylor and Marc Aroner. Countless other builders build "Catskill-school" rods. To me, the Catskill School says "Eastern Fishing." Forget whether it's dry fly or wet fly, whether you cast it with your wrist or arm. Although… there were some rods made by both Leonard and Payne that I wouldn't hesitate at all to take out west and use on big water or in windy conditions. So… just because you own a rod by one of these Catskill school makers doesn't necessarily make it a "Catskill style rod." For example, I have heard some people refer to their Leonard 49 rods as "Catskill rods." Well, yes and no. Yes, they were built in the tradition of the Catskill school, but Leonard never built or sold them as "Catskill rods" in the formal sense. (see model list above). Your Payne Canadian Canoe, a true cannon in the opinion of most, sprung from the Catskill school of rod making, but that doesn't make it a "Catskill style" rod. By way of another example for a modern maker… I have owned and currently own a number of Bob Taylor rods. While I recognize all of them as coming from the Catskill gene pool, I can point to only one that is a "Catskill style rod" in a more formal sense. It's a light 8' 4/5 weight with a tiny grip - a superb dry fly rod. Anyway… I hope this helps. This is one field of endeavor where speaking in absolutes is, well, absolutely wrong. Bob Piscator Non Solum Piscatur Last Edited By: DrakeBob 04/12/2009 22:08. Edited 1 time.
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tiptop		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 540 04/12/2009 22:15	Bob -- Thanks for clearing that up! Seriously -- great evalution.
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czkid		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3932 04/13/2009 12:50 Moderator	Thanks be to God for old catalogs and the old farts that collect them!!! Now we have an exceedingly well undefined definition... I think I'm getting that headache again!!! Ralph
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tedgolden	In the Catskill style	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2823 04/13/2009 15:45 Moderator	A Leonard Fairy Catskill, 8' 3/2, a 4 weight rod. RH twist guides, snake guide as stripping guide, 3/8 cork rings, Pat # on ferrules, .068 tips. Actual weight, 3 3/8 ounces. A joy to fish, this rod will virtually cast it's self. Slow, wet fly action with a 5 line, somewhat faster with a 4. I use it for our (somewhat sporadic) Ephoron leukon hatch.
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