Thanks
JPM


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JPMarci |
HI 7'0" 2/1 |
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Can anyone help identify the model of HI rod I purchased. Also can anyone find reference to a manufacturing period. Mr. Sinclair's book does not refer to this label, at least the fish part. The rod was attached to an Ocean 35 (previous post) c. 1930s. I am assuming it is a princess, although there is no lettering. The ferrels are rolled and the seat is not typical. It also has a swelled butt. I am looking for accurate thread color. I will be sending it out for refinish.
Thanks JPM ![]() ![]()
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freestoner |
Re: HI 7'0" 2/1 | #1 | ||
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From this useful site:
mysite.verizon.net/vze2h7.../id22.html "Decals are useful for dating Horrocks-Ibbotson rods. The diamond with the UTK logo dates from 1905 until World War I. This logo is usually stamped into the reel seat, but also appears as a decal. The Trout logo decal was then used until 1929. It is rarely seen and is the most beautiful of the H-I decals. Next to appear was an elongated Double Diamond with Utica, NY inside; it was used until 1933. In 1934, a double-diamond logo including the banner reading Best by Test was introduced and was used until 1939. Next came the fanciest of all H-I decals featuring a bright red H-I on a white diamond and accompanied by two banners reading Fish Rod and Genuine Tonkin Cane. The decal of the early 1950's was rectangular with a small gold foil diamond logo. The final decal was a simple red diamond with a large white H-I." According to the text, that makes yours a vintage 1934-1939. Being 7 ft., I think it's more likely that your rod is a Tonka Prince. They didn't all have swelled butts like your rod does. I think the reel seat on yours is nicer than average, too- the best of the range of plastic reel seats used by H-I over the years. From your photo, that looks like the original thread. I can't be sure because of the worn condition, but it looks like either maroon jasper (maroon/black) or straight maroon to me. Michael Sinclair's book on bamboo rod restoration gives the wraps on the Tonka Prince as being dark blue.I don't think that this iis a fixed rule. I've certainly seen different color wraps on other Tonka Prince models. For that matter, I don't think there is a fixed rule on that for several other H-I models, either- or for many models of Montagues or South Bend bamboo rods, in fact. Reel seats and ferrules aren't particularly uniform on those makes, either. For instance, I own a Beaverkill dating from the same era as your rod, according to the decal. The Beaverkill was supposedly the bottom of the line for H-I- but the particular model I have is much better furnished than other Beaverkill rods that I've run across. It has a metal down-locking slide band reel seat, maroon and gold wraps with some intermediates as trim, a total of 10 guides plus tip-top, including 4 snakes on the midsection and 5 on each tip, flamed cane- and even the chrome-plated ferrules with double sawtooth incisions on the sleeve that are typically reserved for the higher grade models of H-I rods, which I believe are nickel silver. Since your rod isn't marked as a Tonka model- some have decals, most models have their names written in white script on the shaft- it may be a Pocono model, which is the only other 7 ft. 2-piece cane fly rod that I know of offered by H-I. I've never handled one, but from what I've heard, and the similar demand and closing prices for them on eBay ($125-200 for a fishable full length Tonka Prince, depending on condition- although I've seen them bring up to around $325, for mint condition with two tips), I think they're basically the same rod as the Tonka Prince- although I've never noticed a swelled butt on any of the Pocono rods that I've looked at in photos. For that matter, I've seldom seen a swelled butt on a Tonka Prince, either. The one I own doesn't have one. It's been pointed out before on this forum that most Horrocks-Ibbottson rods featured distinctly low-budget trimmings, and that the collectibility of them- at least thus far- tends to be low, even for rods in complete and original mint condition. You aren't likely to be able to return that rod to original condition anyway, unless there's a source for replica H-I decals that I don't know about that can be used to replace the dried and stained one on your rod. Restoring the original decal is going to require hours of tedious effort with rubbing alcohol and a fine brush and q-tip cotton or blotting paper in order to get the old varnish off- a very risky process that the decal may not survive (although just maybe it could be done, it will be a bit smudged.) The rest of your rod is obviously going to require a complete stripping, re-varnishing, and rewrapping. If you want it for yourself to fish, maybe it's best just to wrap it the way you want it. Make sure the ferrules fit tightly, too- although you may want to upgrade them anyway. The thing about Tonkas is that as a rule, they're surprisingly good casting and fishing rods. |
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Middle Branch |
Re: HI 7'0" 2/1 | #2 | ||
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That is an interesting rod as far as H-I's go. Not only does it have a nice swelled butt, it also has a nice grip that tapers down to the check. I have yet to see either of these on a Tonka Prince. That seat is also way better than the run of the mill black plastic threaded one.
It's definetely worth restoring, post a pic of it when it's done. |
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JPMarci |
Re: HI 7'0" 2/1 | #3 | ||
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Thank you for the info. I have decided to move forward on the restoration myself. I have no money in the rod so....... When I run into trouble I can always ask for help here, right? This will be my first restoration. The label interests me. I have never seen this label laid over a fish. Not that I have seen hundreds of rods though.
I tackled the label this evening. Went very well. I could not make the fish white but it did clean up well. Much better than before. After mapping the rod I removed the guides. The thread is O/B Jasper. Has anyone ever seen O/B on an HI Rod? I am planning on rewrapping with the same. Any thoughts? The plan is to leave everything south of the winding check alone. I did notice a 1 inch delam in the swelled butt just below the label. I looked under a glass and it looks like a delam not a lift. Any layman help would be appreciated. I would like to keep the cork and check intact. Until next time. JPM |
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JPMarci |
#4 | |||
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Well I have removed the varnish and cleaned up the label. I think it looks a lot better. A bit of the color ran but otherwise pretty clean. Any thoughts?
Should I work at it more? The varnish came of very easily. I have chosen brown thread. I will post fianl pictures. Any additional thoughts on the model?
JPM
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Middle Branch |
#5 | |||
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Outstanding job on preserving the decal. I can tell right off you have the patience it takes to be a good restorer. 9 out of 10 first timers would've
melted that thing. Now don't make the mistake that I did of putting masking tape over it to protect it. I did that to my first H-I and then when I went to
pull the tape off most of the label came off with it.
That is an awesome decal! I've never seen one like it. If you do a decent job of restoring it that rod will be worth quite a bit more than a regular Prince. |
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TomTrout |
#6 | |||
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Great job on cleaning up that rod and preserving the decal.
I will put my .02 in here. I think that rod is a Princess not a Prince. If you scroll down to the price guide on that link to Banjo's site you will see that the Princess came as both 7' and 7'6". The Princess and the Queens were the rods with the swelled butts the Prince didn't, at least I've never seen one. Also in the '49 reprint catalog that I have the Prince replaced the Princess in H-I line so no Prince should have that label on it, it was wrapped in blue. I would also guess that that rod was refinished once because I've never seen that type of reelseat on an H-I rod. I would guess that the old plastic reelseat was replaced. Many people think plastic reelseats are cheap and ugly and replace them, see John Gierach's "Fishing Bamboo". IMO Plastic was the new big material around WW2. It was considered the best material in it's time. If your restoring this rod as a fishing rod, I'll assume you are since your changing thread color, you may want to change the location and # of guides, to make it a better fishing rod. Tom |
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kimk |
#7 | |||
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I have a Tonka Prince w/ a swelled butt. The script is 100% as is the label which is the green rectangle w/ the small gold diamond. This had the grey plastic
insert w/ the weird taper where it met the cork. The plastic was so degraded and cracked that I removed in pieces with my fingers. Many of the plastic reel
seats from this era have not aged well, so if it seems as though yours has been replaced I would not be surprised.
Did they make a Prince w/ a swelled butt? -- I have one -- but I also have one which does not. AgMD |
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freestoner |
#8 | |||
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So many things about H-I models are up for grabs...reel seats, wrap colors, decals, numbers of guides, quality of ferrules, cane color, even lengths and the
tapers.
I have a 9 ft. H-I fitted with what appears to be that exact reel seat- the spacer on that 7' rod is in fact brown plastic, if I haven't missed my guess. It's my favorite of all the H-I reel seats, out of a decidedly motley assortment, aesthetically speaking. I'm not sure of the model of my rod, since it's a refinish-rewrap with no identifying marks- but I'm dead certain that the make is H-I (grip, winding check, unpinned ferrules, cane color and surface, construction.) The only other contender would be Montague- but by now, I've seen enough production models that I nearly always find it fairly easy to tell post-1920s H-Is and Montagues apart. Calling the model on an unmarked rod is more difficult. But from the reversed slight half-wells cork grip, and the feel of the rod itself, I'm guessing that mine was originally made and marked as a Governor, probably from the late 1930s. Also- I'm by no means sure that it's always possible to reliably date H-I rods based on the decals, for reasons that I'll illustrate shortly. fwiw, I've never seen that particular "H-I fish" decal, either. Very different from the "trout" decals, of which I've encountered 3 variations thus far. The one on that rod looks like a bass. From what I'm seeing of the cork grip, it looks as if it's a better grade than the spongy, wormhole-ridden cork that's such a signature trait of the vast majority of mid-to-low price H-I rods manufactured in some eras, including the Prince and Princess. The 7' 9" Tonka Queens I've run across so far have all had the better quality tight cork rings that are found on higher priced rods like the Chancellor and the Canada Creek, but most of the Tonka Prince models that I've seen have grips with that wormhole-speckled stuff.
Last Edited By: freestoner 08/19/2007 07:05.
Edited 6 times.
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uppercreek |
#9 | |||
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I finally got around to photographing my Princess. It has good quality reel seat hardware, cork and a swelled butt like the rod that started this thread, and the leaping rainbow/sunset decal that dates it from 1923-29 according to Sinclair's Rod Restoration Handbook. It also comes with a bag and a wood stiffener. I have seen that bass decal on old bait casting rods and surf rods, but not on a fly rod. I just noticed that this rod also has the Best by Test with double diamond logo on the bag label. My Princess was a sweet rod before she got abused. She has red and black jasper wraps with offset olive tipping. Alas, one of the tips is broken in half and the other one is snapped off at the ferrule.
The rod is for sale. If anybody is interested in it, email me at mctillot@comcast.net for more details about the rod condition. Regards, Kevin
Last Edited By: uppercreek 08/27/2007 17:22.
Edited 1 time.
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bulldog1935 |
#10 | |||
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If it makes you feel any better, I have a 6' 10" rebuilt Princess (swelled butt), and it fishes very well. It's a qualified big-fish rod, unlike
the Prince.
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JPMarci |
#11 | |||
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Here is an interesting rod from e-bay. Same logo, much different rod.
JPM http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-Horrocks-Ibbotson-2pc-Trout-Logo-Bamboo-Fly-Rod_W0QQitemZ170148222329QQihZ007QQcategoryZ11144QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
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Ironblue |
#12 | |||
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-Doug |
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freestoner |
#13 | |||
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bump
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