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Middle Branch |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #21 | ||
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Can any of ya'll tell me how to change an inner tie rod on a Ford Ranger?
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Marterius |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #22 | ||
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Being myself involved in social psychology studies, I just love this!
As much as I should like to go on about fly rods and violins (and you can all see my signature), I think the important point here is the role of expectation in our cognition. It is not a matter of aesthetics or moral, it is a matter of attention being a limited resource, and our expectations make us filter out most of the impressions we get. The more familiar we are with the surroundings and events, the more do we rely on the routine, shutting of incoming information. We are busy on our way to work, and occupied with thoughts about things we are responsible for, including being in time, and we have expectations about musicians in the subway being some poor beggars and a part of the background. We do not recognize perfection and world class performance because we are not expecting it and therefore not looking for it. It is a part of the limitations of human nature, and I do not think we should be judgmental about that. It is important to understand that we work like this, but not a reason to be judgemental. Our expectations has the same role in wvangler's example: "If you doled out $3000 for a finely made rod from Tom Morgan and had some of your bonus left over and bought a samemade taper for $500 from an upstart rodmaker, would you immediately infer the superiority of the more expensive rod or would you critique on equal footing?" Expectations could indeed make us presume that the former was superior without actually comparing them. This is a kind of bias I think it is important to be wary about. On the other hand, if we started to compare the rods, I think it would be difficult to compare them on equal footing, for the same reasons. We would be more sensitive about flaws in the Morgan rod, and less forgiving, since our expectations about that rod would be higher. By the way, Cane Head, my daughter sometimes plays Depeche Mode on her violin; strangely, it works. Regards, Martin in Sweden Edit: What I say above is of course basically the same as Paul Guyer said in the article. I just use more words and talk from a cognitive perspective instead of a Kantian perspective... ------------------
"On the long list of things that people use, I have always felt that there are three outstanding examples of perfect harmony between utility and beauty. They are the violin, the double shotgun, and the fly rod." - W. J. Schaldach |
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spruce grouse |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #23 | ||
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Ken,
My son unfortunately gave up viola after two years, including one of private lessons. (As someone with a degree in music composition I was disappointed, but what can you do?) He would play music from Star Wars, complete with orchestral accompaniment. sg |
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spruce grouse |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #24 | ||
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One thing that bothers me about the "experiment" is that it seems biased. Now I'm not a statistician (my worst grade in grad school) or sociologist but doing the experiment during the height of rush hour has to yield very different results than if Bell had played at noontime, for instance or on a Saturday. Hell, if I were late for work I wouldn't stop for a two-headed dog.
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canenut |
Re: Does art transcend? Would you stop? | #25 | ||
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Cane Head,
Many thanks for both sharing and experiencing that poignant moment. I can only imagine how thrilling that must have been. Drew, Right on. |
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BlackHillsBill |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #26 | ||
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I'm on the lam from a thread I started. And
although I lack the credentials to be here-- which has never bothered me in similar situations--I thought you might not mind too much taking me in for a moment and giving me sanctuary. This is a fascinating place. I have heard--or think I have--that aesthetic issues are individual questions, that there are no widely acceptable standards for appreciating art, that any person bringing issues of morality to a discussion of art should be escorted out because he's obviously sneaked past the security guards who, after all, have standards to meet, that context counts for a whole lot, and that it's peculiar that moderators, not VWB, should be the ones who are responding so frequently and at such length to this thread. That last one, it seems safe to say, is indisputable. And it's also foolish to neglect context. If it's literary art, we need to know the conventions of the period during which it was written, although if it's truly good it will probably burst those barriers. Not to understand those conventions, though, is to be terribly wise in the conceit of our own judgment. Of course art has intellectual content. Anything that forms the materials at hand has that. Otherwise it would bore the living daylights out of us. Chesterton said--and I think he was right--boredom begins where intellectual activity leaves off. I'd venture art has moral content and context as well. And some literary art has got itself in a heap of trouble by belaboring that content and hanging villains too publicly who should have been allowed to hang themselves. On the other hand, it's not quite accurate to say a poem shouldn't mean but be. In fact, the very poem in which that admonition appeared ironically violated its own dictum. Wallace Stevens got at this as well as any modern poet, giving importance both to the context of art and to the shape the artist gives it. Walking with a friend seaside at Key West, the poet himself sings about a singer he overhears: It was her voice that made The sky acutest at its vanishing. She measured to the hour its solitude, She was the single artificer of the world In which she sang. And when she sang, the sea, Whatever self it had, became the self That was her song, for she was the maker. Then we, As we beheld her striding there alone, Knew that there never was a world for her Except the one she sang and, singing, made. Don't you feel that with regard to the work of a truly good rodmaker when it's singing in your hands? And isn't it wonderful that, when one is weary of lists and acquisitions and accomplishments, the forum provides us threads like this one? Thanks. |
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DrakeBob |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #27 | ||
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I think spruce hit on an excellent point. As a former rail commuter I can tell you that there were many mornings (probably most mornings) when it wouldn't have mattered if the entire Boston Symphony were seated on the platform at Park Street Station. I would surely have "seen" them and may have recognized what they were playing as I whizzed by jockeying for position in the queue to the escalator, but stopping to listen, appreciate, value, smell the roses - however you'd like to characterize it - would not have been an option. If there is a statement to be made about the condition of the human race as a result of all of this, it may very well be a whole lot simpler than what we might conclude from those with the kind of time it takes to delve into the metaphysics of the matter.
Ive love to stay and chat, but Ive gotta go |
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BlackHillsBill |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #28 | ||
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Yeah, Bob. Spruce nailed it. That's
why I gave up work and went on the public dole. For sooner than I cared to think I would be forced to brake: Because I could not stop for Death-- He kindly stopped for me-- Retirement, you see, allows me to strew these jolly scraps of poetry on your paths or on your rails as you ride to work. Go get 'em, you tigers! No need for thanks. It's what I do now. Practically all that I do. |
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tedgolden |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #29 | ||
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Retirement, you see, allows me to strew
these jolly scraps Ah, now we do for free what we used to get paid to do! Our payment of course is what we in the Dismal Science call psychic income. Non taxable, no less! |
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bearbutt |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #30 | ||
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This is a great social story. It reminds me of Isak Dinesen's story "Babette's Feast" (and a related story she tells in "Out of Africa") where the subject of wine--very specific Burgandys--came up. (The film versions of both stories quite miss the nuances here)--. It's always fun to take a really fine wine--decant it into an empty bottle of plonk--and share it with your spouse--plus, it's a way you can buy a fine wine and not have to bear the brunt of doing so.
bb |
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uniphasian |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #31 | ||
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I've know about Joshua Bell for 6-7 years now. Not through classical music, but through a collaboration he did with a bunch of bluegrass players. If you want a nice CD to pop in the player on the way to the river, here is a great one:
Short Trip Home No matter where you drive, the music seems to change in perfect harmony with the scenery. ------------------------------------------- I'd like to think I would have stopped. Not just because I would recognize Joshua Bell, or because I love the sound of a good fiddle (or violin) - but also because I never seem to be in that much of a hurry to get to work. - Uni
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mvinsel |
Re: I brake for just about anything | #32 | ||
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How do they know that people who passed by were not affected?
I say that people can be very stingy with their prescious time and money and might not detour from their path, but I believe that the music reaches them and is appreciated, whether they know it or not. If they were familiar with the tune, it very likely planted itself in their mind from the few bars they heard, and colored their thought train for at least a little while. I doubt anyone on this board fishes with an IPOD or walkman running, but I'd guess many of us often have some pleasant musical background in our minds as we fish. But do we know consciously what got us on a particular tune ? |
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gofish60 |
Re: Does art transcend? Would you stop? | #33 | ||
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Is the original rod "art". I think so, but so is the reproduction. A large part of my enjoyment of an item I own and use, especially a bamboo fly rod, is the appreciation it's history, of the work that went into it, the beauty (to me) of the rod, and the performance.
By definition, the "new" repro can't compare with the old, even if it is a perfect copy, (which ain't gonna happen for $500, BTW), but that's beside the point. Just the patina, old varnish smell, and the "wounds" of past use are enough to make me choose the old rod, which is why I own and fish old rods that I can afford rather than old rods I can't afford or repros of either. So, I guess my answer to the original question is simply, that I would initally give preference to the old rod, all other things about the situation being equal. What I do know is, that with music, literature and fishin' poles, I know what I like, and after a lot of looking around in my 70 years, I have settled in and don't bother with what I don't like anymore. On another level, I caught myself humming and singing Billy Joel songs when on the stream last weekend. Scary, but at least I didn't have an Ipod. I don't own one , and most probably would not recognize one if shown to me. BTW, I'd have stopped and listened the imprompto concert. I love violin, and especially classic violin. gofish |
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quashnet |
Re: Does art transcend? Would you stop? | #34 | ||
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Sometimes, hiking along a trout stream, I used to conjure up in my mind passages from Ralph Vaughn Williams' compositions, or a Puccini aria. But all of that changed during one of my trips to the North Slope of Alaska. I was hiking across tundra to get to a particular stretch of river to collect and study Arctic grayling. To shorten the total distance hiked (for tussock tundra is very fatiguing over long distances) I cut far away from the river and the sound of moving waters, intending to meet up again with the river at a bend a half mile ahead. Midway through the journey, I stopped, alone in a vast expanse of tussock tundra. The snows of the Brooks Range glistened thirty miles to the south. It was early July, but no mosquitoes hummed, no ravens called, and no curlews whistled. No wind moved any aeolian harp, ruling out Coleridge's query...
And what if all of animated nature Be but organic Harps diversly fram'd, That tremble into thought, as o'er them sweeps Plastic and vast, one intellectual breeze, At once the Soul of each, and God of all ? ... for there was no breeze, and there was no sound. No sound whatsoever. I did not even hear a ringing in my ears. I experienced, for the first, and last, and only time in my life, absolute silence in nature It is not the same as being present at a performance of John Cage's 4'33". It is not the same as any other experience, and it cured me of providing my life with a soundtrack, but instead shifted that responsibilty onto life itself. When life offers up Joshua Bell to my ears, I hope to be ready. |
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bswild |
Re: Does art transcend? Would you stop? | #35 | ||
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Reading those stanzas by Stevens made me feel like my hair caught fire. Just a tremendous poet, he was. Did you ever hear the story of him punching out Hemingway? True story. He was at a party in Havana, where Hemingway's sister (I forgot her name) heard him make an unkind remark about Hem's prose. She told her brother, who went and challenged Stevens. I forget the details, but I do know that Stevens knocked Papa on his ass--which makes me wonder how gracefully Hemingway reacted under the pressure of getting decked by an insurance man (who happened to be among the greatest poets ever). Didn't even require a Spanish tank to do it.
But yeah. Like LeClerc said, "Style is the man himself." And it's the same with rod makers. |
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Cane Head |
Re: Does art transcend? Would you stop? | #36 | ||
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I think we all have receptors for whatever type of art form turns our crank whether it be a cane, a particular piece of music, art/artist, or a pair of well formed woman's Wrangler's and/or halter top
Cane |
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stickleyboy |
Old Thread worth reading | #37 | ||
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I found this old thread, enjoyed its themes and thought I'd just reply to point others to it. Points I especially like from the thread: 1. Both aesthetics and morality involve a capacity to discriminate. But morality and aesthetics are differrent. The capacity to appreciate the action of an E.W. Edwards rod may help you appreciate the difference between right and wrong (and vice versa?). But just because you own a good rod does not make you good. 2. Intellectual appreciation/understanding of something (like knowledge of the action/taper/history of a great rod) is related to the actual experience (the aesthetic experience of casting a great rod), but these are distinct modes of relating to the world. Of these moments the second is primary. The people who realize this most strongly get pissed off at the rest of us who feel the need to not only indulge in the first, but use the first to get a handle on the second. We could respond that the subjectivity of taste does not remove the possibility of argument and experience that develops good taste, but that's not going to make them less pissy. 3. The experience of beauty/art involves stopping and "listening", a voluntary forgetting of oneself and ones interests in submission to the beauty of the object one experiences. It is a kind of emotional quietness. 4. In order to stop, it helps to have prior wealth of experiences/preconceptions/time/money (i.e. a memory of oneself and ones interests and other beautiful objects) that assist in the "choice" to stop and listen. This is a (mischevious) paradox made more complicated by the fact there are infinite degrees between running and stopping. 5. Classic tackle assists in realizing the truthiness of 1-4. Jim
Last Edited By: stickleyboy 06/24/2009 20:58.
Edited 1 time.
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bluejayee |
#38 | |||
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Hi Guys, I haven't read the article. I don't have time 'right now.' Leisure is needed to have both appreciation and discernment. So, I can
forgive myself and others for rushing past in their haste to live their lives. It's all always before us this moment to appreciate the grains of sand in
the dirt, all we have to do is stop. The tragedy is with those who really can't stop or see. Edwin Markham's The Man with a Hoe; "Whose breath
blew out the light within this brain?" ............" Slave to the wheel of labor, what to him are Plato and the swing of the Pleiades? What the
long reaches of the peaks of song, the rift of dawn, the reddening of the rose?" Ah, do I really deserve a life of leisure? Markham only wrote one
decent poem. Jay Edwards
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ARTHURK |
#39 | |||
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This is a very nice thread I missed. Thanks for bringing it to light.
The situation mentioned reminded me of a 'bamboo shootout' session I organized a few months ago for my flyfishing club. Among the rods used for casting were a PHY 15, PHY Perfectionist, Granger 8040, Carpenter Browntone, Wojnicki, Leonard 50DF, Winston Quad, Aroner Hunt etc. Everyone wanted to try 'famous tapers' without even stopping to ask what to expect in terms of 'feel' and many walked away disappointed, especially with the Catskill School tapered rods. I was not surprised at all with this reaction as IMHO it takes some learning to appreciate art as all forms of art has a language of its own and are not merely stimuli. Well, the few casters who stayed longer to hear me out really enjoyed the Carpenter and the Perfectionist... It was a good session. Arthur |
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mr flymph |
#40 | |||
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Would I have stopped? No. Had it been Pink Floyd playing "Echoes", "Any Colour You Like", or perhaps, "The Great Gig In the
Sky" I not only would have stopped, I"d have been late for work or skipped work altogether.
Speak yer mind, but ride a fast horse!
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