Bob
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DrakeBob |
#21 | |||
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Middle Branch, consider that some of the run-up in prices for things like an older Featherweight (even a "beater") is because at times like these
there is always a bit of panic that sets in as people rush to make sure they've got one that's inscribed "made in England," in this case.
After all, the price can only go up, right? When passions subside, those who bought on the bubble may regret not waiting a bit. I liken the situation with
older Hardys to be a bit like Orvis rods... they're nice, but they made an awful lot of them.
Bob
Last Edited By: DrakeBob 12/12/2007 08:47.
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creakycane |
Japan rods | #22 | ||
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Berry - I think it would be rather misleading to bring up a really world-class rod like Kagerrow in a discussion of outsourcing to Korea. There are MANY top class rods being made in Japan, and that has nothing to do with stuff being outsourced to them etc - there just happens to be a good number of great craftmen there with an appreciation of western rod tradition and aesthetics.
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mer |
#23 | |||
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Guys, while I admit that the outsourcing is a shame, it would be an even bigger shame to turn what is a reasonable thread into a "bash everyone that is
outsourced to". You don't like the outsourcing, you have a choice, vote with your wallet.
thanks |
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gmflyfish |
Hardy and Outsourcing | #24 | ||
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I agree with all of the opinions stated on this thread and we need to vote with our wallets. Most of the companies outsourcing (Hardy, Winston, Mattel) are
not passing the savings on to the consumer. Hardys 80% reduction in costs has not transfered to a price decrease. Mattel's outsourcing of Barbie to be
manufactured for 40 cents and still sold for $24 in the US, Winston making a rod for $20 in the US and Selling for 200 versus making it for 5 in China and
selling it for 200 in the US is what upsets me. Yes I do vote with my wallet. I did get a chance to visit the old Hardy plant in north England when I lived
there about 25 years ago. I owned a lot of Hardy reels in the past. I now hae Ross Reels built in colorado and will continue to support ross reels.
I will continue to support those companies making things in the US. For toys for Tots contributions I look for made in the USA. These are my personal opinions and do not reflect those of the board. Gregg |
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Sparquero |
#25 | |||
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There are still a couple of Hardy reels that I covet, namely a 2/3/4 Cascapedia, 5/6/7 Cascapedia and a 3" Bougle. If I am ever really in the market for
one of those reels I am certain that I will scrutinize the new offerings very carefully for quality & workmanship before ever opening the wallet.
I still like the brand, the name and the history associated with it and don't think that I will ever stop looking at their product, maybe just a little closer. I wonder where the designs are coming from. Does House of Hardy maintain a R & D department responsible for new materials, concepts & product design? I would hope that the design and engineering is still done in the UK. |
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Berry Point |
#26 | |||
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I take your point Creaky, but actually I was just trying to underscore the point that there is no reason to assume Asian made is inherently inferior. No,
Korea doesn't produce rods, but they do have world class machinists who do excellent work, and since Hardy has sent production to both Korea and Japan it
seems, I'm fairly confident that there will be few if any workmanship or quality control issues with the reels made by either one.
Cheers |
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creakycane |
#27 | |||
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Agreed, Berry - but I think your earlier post hits dead-on the issue - the nostalgia and tradition (Alnwick/tweed coats/British Isle) associated with Hardy is
what drives alot of the thirst for those reels. How it mixes with CNC machining in Korea will be interesting - but I agree, I would expect to see machining
quality be quite high.
Last Edited By: creakycane 12/12/2007 17:34.
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Berry Point |
#28 | |||
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Ditto Creaky. It is after all the tradition that's lost, not the craftsmanship or functionality. Hardy could even have their manufacturers lube the reels with some sort of Tweed oil and it still wouldn't make them the British reels we have come to love. Shame. |
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JR SPEY |
#29 | |||
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Let me respond to a number of posts. First of all, it is correct that the country of manufacture is supposed to be on every product. I've discussed this
with many of the reelmakers I deal with and seem to get almost nowhere. From my reading of the law (and I have a copy of it) it is against the law for any
dealer to sell a reel (rod, etc.) that doesn't have this designation. And it can't just be on the box or instruction manual. It has to be on the reel
itself, though it does not necessarily have to be engraved into the finish. A small sticker on the reelfoot would satisfy the law as I read it.
There's a lot of discussion about Asia as if it's all one country and culture. Japan has been building quality products for a lot of years now. Kineya and Wellstone are just two examples of a number of high quality reels made there. I didn't see a reel I really thought very highly of from Korea until about three or four years ago. Now they are doing some very fine work, indeed. When Orvis shut down BFR in the UK and moved production to China a couple of years ago, it wasn't happy with what they were getting. About a year ago right now the decision was made to move production again to Korea and it's my understanding that the results are much better. I have yet to see a reel from China that was truly well done. That day will come, mind you, and probably pretty soon. But unless it's something I haven't seen yet, they aren't there yet. Korea produces a quality product for Temple Fork, Sage, Loop, Guideline, Scierra, and several others. A comment was also made in one of these posts that Korea doesn't make rods. That may have been a typo, but Korea does indeed do rods although even here a lot of that manufacturing has transferred from Korea to China as the Chinese are better at doing rods at this point than they are reels. Even Shimano has rods that are done in China. I wasn't convinced about the Chinese and their rodmaking until I started messing around with Beulah rods. They're all Chinese and they cast and look superb. |
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bulldog1935 |
#30 | |||
Sandy Mite wrote:
that is essentially what JW Young did - they decided what part of their line would be supported at home by people willing to pay top, um, quid for the
product, they kept a handful of artisans, laid everyone else off, and continue to make centrepins.
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Red Butt Retiree |
#31 | |||
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I'm not opposed to buying products made elsewhere, whether English or Asian. My first decent camera was Japanese (Aires in 1959), and every camera worth
having I've bought since then has been (Miranda, then Nikon, to which I've remained faithful). Some of my woodworking machines are labeled
"Delta" but the castings, and occasionally more, are made in China. In some cases, I can see a difference. In others, that's not the case. And of
course cars are the same: a couple of MG's in the '60's, a Toyota in 1965, a bunch of short-lived American cars, a Mazda RX7 in 1979, followed by
some better American cars, finally ending with a Mexican-made Chrysler and a sort-of-US-made Toyota.
I've got a few rod blanks that were made in Asia; so far, they all suck and remain unbuilt until I can just give them away to a budding rodbuilder or trash them. I'm sure that's not always the case, as Bill Batson and some others bring in some good products, but mine have been pretty rotten examples. Reels are mixed, so far, but what's been done with J. Austin Forbes and what's been done with Shakespeare, for example, are very different and the results show it. Neither approaches Kineya, but one's a pretty good product for the price, and the other one's rapidly becoming a forgotten name, for good reason. But having established my illogical and peculiar hodge-podge of biases, what really ticks me off is offshoring/outsourcing/importing when it's done poorly, no matter who's responsible. I've had uniformly unsatisfactory encounters with call centers in India, despite having worked for many years with a number of Indians: there's a world of difference in English-language fluency and clarity between the computer programmers I knew as friends and the call center agents who work for next to nothing, and it shows. Company profits, customer suffers. Some of the brands I've known and trusted for a lifetime have moved to my blacklist, and no future improvement will get them off it - I do hold a grudge for a long time, and vote with my cash. Regardless of the quality of the offshored Hardy products, the failure to clearly disclose country of origin is both illegal and deceptive, and that's doing offshoring poorly. So Hardy's moved onto my blacklist to stay. I won't be throwing away any vintage Perfects or St. Georges, but I won't be buying any new Hardy products in the future. My vintage reels will be worth even more once Hardy fails, and I won't shed a lot of tears if that happens. |
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seattlesetters |
#32 | |||
mer wrote: Agreed. My last six reel purchases....all made since September....are:
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BigTJ |
#33 | |||
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The unsubstantiated story I heard was that Hardy would drop their prices substantially once the korean-made models became available but I don't see any evidence of that happening at retail stores. I can only imagine how many dealers will drop Hardy if they have to eat the difference on the new reel prices for their old stock by marking them down, if it comes true. A few months ago I was pretty up in arms about this whole issue. Now it doesn't matter to me. I won't buy a new hardy because I don' think there is value for money there any more. At the prices they are charging, I'd rather have a peerless, regardless of where the Hardy's are made. Start selling Korean-made Bougle's at $250-$450 with comparable quality to the English made models and I might change my mind. God knows Hardy would sell a lot at that price point.
Last Edited By: BigTJ 12/12/2007 16:15.
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DoctorFly |
#34 | |||
bulldog1935 wrote: You're right, Ron, and the logic of it all goes back to the Victorian days of small workshops
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bulldog1935 |
#35 | |||
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excellent analogy, Doc.
We should co-author a book. |
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pcg |
#36 | |||
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You should author a book, regardless, Ron.
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Rockthief |
#37 | |||
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Regarding Young, everything but the building was hauled on ships from England to China. It just is not the same.
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Flyman615 |
#38 | |||
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It boils down, in some respects, to a matter of perspective and viewpoint. I, for one, am enamoured of our sport largely because of its traditions. I am, therefore, admittedly a traditionalist, and proud of it. Does that mean I only use old or "classic" tackle and techniques? No, but I also draw my own personal lines in the proverbial sand. That said, I don't necessarily expect anyone to agree with me. I've always told "newbies" to fly fishing that traditionally (there's that word again) the best fly rods in the world were made in
America, and the best fly reels in the world were made in England. Without intending to insult anyone who resides or produces tackle elsewhere, that's the
way I felt then and still the way I feel now. Yep, the world is definitely passing me by. So be it.
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DrakeBob |
#39 | |||
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I think Scott sums it up pretty well. Despite my "understanding" of what is going on at an intellectual level, at an emotional level I'm
someplace else entirely. The last new Hardy I bought was a Bougle Mk IV and I'm guessing that will be about it for me. You can call that unfair or
close-minded but at this stage of the game, I reserve that right.
We can't avoid this discussion because here in The Little Forum That Time Forgot the
passing or changing of an institution is something we probably take harder than most people do, and definitely take more personally than most people
do. Our chief interest is, after all, the preservation of what is old and that which we've always known or are sure to have always existed. In this forum,
there can be no other reaction to this kind of upheaval other than what we're seeing here.
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bob2935 |
Hardy Demise | #40 | ||
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I will drink to that Sandy Mite.
Bohemian Bob |
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